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Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand.
(12-02-2018, 10:22 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote: A nucleus around Boudica and the other leaders, with smaller subgroups branching off to plunder and forage, scouting ahead sometimes, rejoining the main group at intervals . . . They would need to maintain some sort of unity for mutual protection, as they would have known that the Roman army was out there somewhere and their strength lay in numbers. But they comprised people from several different tribes, with presumably several different leaders - whoever was in overall control (Boudica, perhaps) would have wanted to keep them together, and avoid factions splitting off and doing their own thing if at all possible.

(12-03-2018, 09:30 AM)John1 Wrote: Nathan....... You are no longer a Paradista....

What have we been arguing about?
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
Reply
"you with your '80 miles in 2 days' - ha!"

I think you think the Iceni were as couchbound as we armchair-istas

www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWQMaBWykuk

"What have we been arguing about?"

what have you got? Nathan'll fight.....
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(12-03-2018, 03:55 PM)John1 Wrote: I think you think

I think we are rehashing a discussion we already had nearly three years ago.
Nathan Ross
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(12-03-2018, 03:55 PM)John1 Wrote: "What have we been arguing about?"

what have you got? Nathan'll fight.....

Oh, I thought it was you who had been going on about Paradistas
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
Reply
If I have been "going on" it has been about the potential strategic movements that could make CS a credible candidate, and I have done so at some length at your specific request. As it happens these observations are at odds with the strategic model of Iceni movement that have been peddled by many from Webster to Marix-Evans. It has also exposed Tribunus Ross as a non-paradista, which I am mightily relieved about. Are there any paradistas left? 

It would seem three years of slow fermentation can kill off the paradista gene, this is good news.
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(12-03-2018, 09:40 PM)John1 Wrote: If I have been "going on" it has been about the potential strategic movements that could make CS a credible candidate, and I have done so at some length at your specific request.

You had, of course, been referring to paradistas long before I made my request. However, I fail to see how the paradista issue has any relevance to any particular site. If the rebels were 'parading', they would be doing so wherever the battle took place.
 
(12-03-2018, 09:40 PM)John1 Wrote: It has also exposed Tribunus Ross as a non-paradista, which I am mightily relieved about. Are there any paradistas left?

You will recall having recently referred to the 'Tring Paradistas'. By this, I assume that you meant Theodoric, Nathan and me, being the advocates of Tring. You have now pronounced Nathan to be a non-paradista and express doubt as to whether there are any paradistas left. Does this mean that Theodoric and I are also off your hook?
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
Reply
"I fail to see how the paradista issue has any relevance to any particular site."
Let me see if I can help.
Church Stowe offers the potential for Iceni forces to approach from both the South and the East which might account for the swelling numbers. This multiple approach approach makes sense in terms of the Brits fielding a viable army, a couple of weeks in a single unit would have made them slow, unwieldy and probably very hungry unless they carried a lot of stores as foraging for a couple of hundred thousand would be very slow and ineffective. This attitude to NOT having a single unit compromises Marix Evans and Appleby's methodologies and therefore site rationales and, in my view, makes the all round defence topography of CS more important.

On the flip side NOT having a single unit approaching en mass makes some sites very tenuous. As much as I love the Tring site, it only works if the Brits arrive en masse from a single direction.Multiple units coming from a wider geography would ruin the choreography of the battle. Tring is open to the east and the north as well as the south so the only possible way Tring could be credible was if the Brits were in a single big unit coming from a single direction and were determined to stick to a single compromised line of approach. So with Tringalings now eschewing the Paradistas we have to knock Trings likelihood down a few notches.

Hence the paradista issue is relevant to a number of sites and campaign/battle choreography.

As for your concerns about your own identity, it's entirely up to you, I am of the view that if you are a Tringaling then you have to be a Paradista as they Brits could only come from One Direction  www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_v9MY_FMcw
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(12-05-2018, 04:36 PM)John1 Wrote: the Tring site... only works if the Brits arrive en masse from a single direction. Multiple units coming from a wider geography would ruin the choreography of the battle.

To be fair, we should mention that there are (at least) two different sites around Tring. My favoured site is over to the east at Newground, at the head of the Bulborne valley. Deryk's site is south-west of the town, in a far more constricted valley that could indeed address enemies coming from the north or east.

The whole point of Paulinus's choice of terrain, I thought, was to compel the enemy to attack him on a narrow front and from only one direction. The Newground site is intended to confront an enemy advancing up the Bulborne from St Albans.

The Romans would only have to concern themselves with multiple attacks coming from different directions if they had failed to choose a battle site that took account of the position and movement of the enemy.

Your site at Church Stowe, while topographically dramatic, looks fatally easy to outflank. You have one army of Iceni advancing (or 'parading') for 80 miles from their homeland along the Nene valley - a journey of 8-10 days continuous travel. Another army approaches from the south, after 'parading' up Watling Street for 46 miles from St Albans (and there's no way you can escape the issue of wagons with this one, as they've just sacked London and St Albans, so they take 4-5 days too).

The army coming from the east, just by continuing along the low-lying Nene valley, can easily circle around behind the Roman position. Similarly, your Watling Street army can move west along the lateral valley towards Farthingstone and do the same.

   

The Romans are therefore trapped, surrounded by an army that outnumbers them considerably. They could try to break out of the encirclement - but that is not the battle described in our sources. The only way that this battle could happen is if the combined forces of Britons, after marching stolidly for over a week to get there, obligingly entered the Roman trap... would they really be that inept?


(12-05-2018, 04:36 PM)John1 Wrote: So with Tringalings now eschewing the Paradistas we have to knock Trings likelihood down a few notches.

I have no idea what you mean by that! [Image: sad.png]
Nathan Ross
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John,
Your version of events seems to be based on the assumption, expressed earlier in this thread, that part of the Iceni army returned to their homeland with their booty from Colchester. Presumably, they then gathered the wives and proceeded along the Nene valley to rendezvous with the remainder of the army travelling up Watling Street at the point where the two routes meet and where they had somehow divined the final battle was to take place. Suetonius, in the meantime, despite having no doubt been informed by his scouts that two enemy forces were converging upon him from different directions, had obligingly established himself at the very same spot and did not respond to the threat by extricating himself from the trap, as he easily could have done, by marching further up Watliing Street to bring himself even nearer to his reinforcements coming down from North Wales. I'm sorry; I just don't buy it.

On the basis of Nathan's recent account of how he saw the rebels proceeding, you have pronounced him no longer to be a paradista. Nathan can speak for himself but, for my part, I see nothing in what he said that in any way corresponds with your scenario. My view remains that, in order to accomplish the stated objective of the rebellion and to maintain the coalition of the various tribes involved, Boudica had to be seen at all times to be taking the conflict to the Romans and that this required the successive elimination of the centres of Roman influence, Colchester, London and the newly constituted municipium of Verulamium. To do  this, she had to keep her army together. I do not at all rule out the likelihood of collateral raiding away from the main body but essentially this was one army (which, incidentally, was probably nothing like as great as Dio's 230,000 men), proceeding in one direction and with one objective, the driving of the Romans out of Britain. If that makes me a paradista, I will happily and proudly accept the appellation.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
Reply
Lovely map, I'm going to be nicking that..... it must be one of the finest freestanding ridges in  the Midlands.

[Image: attachment.php?aid=14870]

and it makes my case for me, thank you. 

1 The topo is soooo perfect defensively your outflanking forces are a the foot of the ridge facing entrenched hill top camps all the way around. So no benefit from moving around the ridge, that's what makes this topo so perfect, all round defence same pointing south as pointing north.

2 As we are told the battle site was enclosed by woods to the rear. Now what woods could possibly impede your local lads with skirmishing skills, it wouldn't be the oak and ash woodlands you get in this neck of the woods. The most impenetrable woods you can find in England are the willow and alder scrub you get in clay vallies. It can be as dense as any jungle. So the surrounding woods in this case would be the riparian scrub chocking the two headwater streams of the Nene that you are indicating as the outflanking duel carriageways. Honestly get out into some salix and alnus choked stream valleys, chances are these ones weren't cleared until much later than 61AD, you need more Mercian mud on your boots if your going to play this game. So your outflanking would be really really really hard work and you would end up facing the same slopes with the same Romans at the top of them... that's a point in favour of several ridge top camps as opposed to one honking great one, versatility and working with the terrain of your choosing.

and if we are going on to woodlands Tring hill tops open grassland or open Beech wood? I'm pretty sure they were never impenetrable defensive woodlands on that substrate, that particularly flat and easily traversed open ridge tops.

Your approach from the east is too far north, the route would have been on the south side of the Nene, it would be horrible crossing that river and it's marshes in force and under time pressure. The edge of the flood plain is the likely eastern route.

As for the approach from the south, maybe some did, more likely the main force approach from the south had taken a right a little further south to meet up at Hunsbury Hill, so no need to cross the Nene. A right turn at Pattishall or a bit further up near Bugbrook would suit fine. Then just a hour or so east and you get to the Hunsbury party...

"I have no idea what you mean by that! [Image: sad.png]" - that's nice. I'll give you a bit longer to try to get it then I'll see if I can help out.

In terms of your red dots, you can put another camp trace in the footprint of Church Stowe, a fortlet over the valley SW of Upper Stowe and another high value target feature between Upper and Church Stowe. Otherwise I think you just made the CS case even stronger and more compelling, you played an ace for me...time to get the spades out. I win some, you loose some, it's all the same to me.......

www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iwC2QljLn4

"I'm sorry; I just don't buy it." - oh no.... I am devastated, but in time I'll learn to cope..... maybe.... Cry Cry Cry
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(12-06-2018, 12:26 AM)John1 Wrote: Lovely map

That's something we can agree on. Where did you get it and can you provide a similar one for the Tring area, not showing the dispositions necessarily but just the topography?
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
Reply
Google Maps with the terrain tab selected, first seen applied to the Battle of Watling Street in this  project in 2010, here;
www.academia.edu/1280170/Battle_Church_Stowe_CP1

you can bump up the contrast in photoshop by messing with the settings. The Tring map is not very good due to the contrast that you can achieve due to google maps method for rendering woodland blocks.

If you like this sort of thing try using the EA 1m DSM lidar data sets,
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(12-06-2018, 08:02 AM)John1 Wrote: Google Maps with the terrain tab selected

Thanks for the tip; I didn't know you could do that. However, I tried a test on Church Stowe but the result was pretty feeble, nothing like as good as yours or Nathan's. Is there any way of improving it without photoshop, which I don't have?
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
Reply
(12-06-2018, 07:56 AM)Renatus Wrote: Where did you get it and can you provide a similar one for the Tring area, not showing the dispositions necessarily but just the topography?

As John says, it's just Google maps 'terrain view' with the colours and contrast altered to show the relief a bit better.

I've done a couple like that for Tring and Dunstable over the years - most recently here.

Here's the Dunstable one:

   

And here's Newground, the Tring site I prefer (there's a wider Tring view a little later on from the post I linked above):

   

I still like the Beacon Hill one too - by far the best of anything I've seen in terms of topography.
Nathan Ross
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I've sorted it out to some extent. I was looking at an area too close to Church Stowe itself. Zooming out  gave a much better view of the site. It could probably do with a bit more contrast, though.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
Reply


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