Thread Rating:
  • 3 Vote(s) - 4.33 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand.
I wrote a longer post addressing some of the points above, but on second thoughts I'm not sure that this sort of debate is doing much good at the moment - none of us have anything genuinely new to bring to it, and by going over the same ground and the same arguments repeatedly we're probably discouraging anyone else from contributing either. So, until some new thing arises, I'm going to leave this topic alone - after eight years, there doesn't seem much else to say!
Nathan Ross
Reply
Margaret Hughes, she who helped organise the conference 'On Boudica's Trail' at Warwick Uni. in 2013, plans to publish a book on Mancetter and Boudica. The following is from Atherstone Civic Society's Autumn 2018 newsletter. Quite some teasing in this note but I look forward to reading the supporting evidence.



BOUDICA AT MANCETTER
The site of that final battle has long tantalized researchers. Yet always, in serious historical debate, one place crops up again and again: Mancetter. There are those who argue against that preference. For Peter and Dan Snow Mancetter is a mere aside in their Battlefield Britain , Towcester proposed instead. But on the other hand we can count Shepherd Frere, Antonia Fraser, Miranda Aldhouse-Green, Michael Wood, Richard Unwin, Paul Sealey, Anne Ross, M.J. Trow, Vanessa Collingridge, Neil Oliver - all as proMancetter as they dare to be given the dearth of archaeological finds. (We have no king in a car-park.)

Graham Webster, of course, is the authoritative Mancetter guru, and more recently Nic Fields has made Mancetter his choice ( Boudica’s Rebellion, Osprey 2011).

Margaret Hughes is working towards bringing out BOUDICA AT MANCETTER, and ready to defend that title via a range of strong evidence. Not only does it present a startling new insight on the narrow valley, or “defile”, in which the Romans initially took their stance, it also worms its way back through the centuries to unearth the reason behind Mancetter’s Roman name Manduessedum. It reveals that name alone is almost proof enough.

There are hurdles yet to be overcome. Expert confirmation of the “defile” is desirable - and costly. Publication could be costly. But here we are, close to the geographical centre of England and a prime spot for a memorial to the thousands killed in one of England’s most significant battles.
Reply
(12-20-2018, 11:55 AM)Steve Kaye Wrote: the reason behind Mancetter’s Roman name Manduessedum

I wonder if this is the 'place of the chariots' idea, although our best source (Tacitus) doesn't mention them!

(12-20-2018, 11:55 AM)Steve Kaye Wrote: we can count Shepherd Frere, Antonia Fraser, Miranda Aldhouse-Green, Michael Wood, Richard Unwin, Paul Sealey, Anne Ross, M.J. Trow, Vanessa Collingridge, Neil Oliver - all as proMancetter

I wonder also whether these luminaries are slavishly following Webster, without considering the alternatives.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
Reply
Fantastic, Margaret leads the way again. A definitive statement about Mancetter would be great to pin down some of the vague arm waving "over there somewhere" character of the candidacy. Nice to see a full line up of celebrity Mancetter mistakers trotted out but who will feed them the Humble Pie?... maybe it's time for a replay of the Hughes Warwick conference as a book launch, this time someone might show up in the Tring or Dunstable corner..... Whatever the outcome, Professor Hughes is playing a blinder for the identity and tourism potential of Atherstone..... I remain unsure why other sites don't take advantage of this potential..... apart from Silchester and their hugely tenuous link to the B word.....

@#1,658   "for 80 miles from their homeland along the Nene valley - a journey of 8-10 days continuous travel." 

or a day and a bit.....  oxfamapps.org/trailwalker/challenge.php
so that's a 100km course for civvies in 30 hours. Course record for a 4 man team held by  Queens Own Gurkha Logistic Regiment team at under ten hours (2004). 8-10 days if you are in an armchair.... maybe....
Reply
(12-02-2018, 01:16 PM)Renatus Wrote: Nathan has identified the passage in Tacitus. It is in Suetonius' pre-battle speech to his soldiers and is pure rhetoric. The wording is important: plus illic feminarum quam iuventutis adspici (literally, 'See there more of women than of the warrior'). The use of the genitive plural (feminarum) and genitive singular (iuventutis) is significant. He is referring to the character of the rebel army, not its composition. Moreover, femina can mean, not just 'woman', but an effeminate male. So, what Suetonius is saying, in not particular PC terms, is in effect, 'Look at that lot! They're not soldiers; they're a bunch of poofs! Show 'em a sword and they'll leg it!'

First, purely unconnected with the battle I'm interested in the women (who isn't?) - but I hadn't noticed this about women at this battle so thanks.

And to the person who said: "no one assumes Watling St." or something similar - I met a very very ardent person online who would not accept that it wasn't on Watling St. They got very upset when I refused to accept it was on Watling St.

On the placing - I can't see anything that says the battle was held directly after St.Albans. In contrast, it seems to be quite an extended period (Paulinus was thinking of waiting till another season). That's plenty of time to move almost anywhere in Britain. It then becomes easier to say where it wasn't - because some places would very likely have got mentioned: it wasn't near the coast, it wasn't near a large river or other obvious named geological feature. It wasn't near a named town/fort, and it wasn't on a major road between towns. It was somewhere very nebulous with no nearby features that Roman readers would have heard of.
Reply
Interesting. I was discussing the campaign some time ago with someone who argued that whole tribes were not mobilised and that the women, children, the old and unfit stayed home to tend to the crops and land. I believe he also mentioned the speech as being derogatory and taken out of context.
Neil Ritchie
Reply
John 1 wrote:

maybe it's time for a replay of the Hughes Warwick conference as a book launch, this time someone might show up in the Tring or Dunstable corner.....

Why not?
Deryk
Reply
NEWS ...

Magazine 'British Archaeology', Issue 165, March/April 2019, has an article by William Foot entitled, "AD60, Boudica: Unlocated battle."

Foot puts forward a case for Heydon Valley, Cambridgeshire as the site of the Boudican battle.

His article is one of three in a series called "Fighting Rome: the archaeological legacy". The other two battles described are Alesia and Teutoburg Forest, both with known locations.

Mag/Issue description here .... http://new.archaeologyuk.org/british-arc...y-magazine
Reply
(02-08-2019, 11:57 AM)Steve Kaye Wrote: Foot puts forward a case for Heydon Valley, Cambridgeshire as the site of the Boudican battle.

We looked at this idea back in November.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
Reply
My Hungarian is a bit sketchy but this guy seems to be onto something....
http://epa.oszk.hu/03100/03133/00015/pdf...85-095.pdf

and with Sheperd Freare, Marix Evans and Church Stowe (almost everyone's favourite) all knocking around Towcester, could this grim visage be that of Bou herself?????
www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details.aspx?objectId=1363122&partId=1&searchText=towcester+head&page=1

www.pastscape.org.uk/hob.aspx?a=0&hob_id=341253&criteria=towcester&search=all&rational=q&recordsperpage=10&nor=94&p=2&recfc=0&move=n&sort=4&fbclid=IwAR1BRKvtGqiQp-pBJNIPWgdFK7ObY1_i3fKuHyO3IOyn2ih6Cv5VKzyIB-U


445078
Reply
I have always assumed that the route of Watling St had existed pre-61AD. Around the Church Stowe area this was primarily because of the pinch point of the Watford Gap and the ease of moving between the headwaters of the Nene, Ouse, Trent, Avon and Cherwell without a bridge. But is this the case? Does anyone have any insight into the earliest use of the Watling St route?

and 2019 will see the release of the most authentic cinematic version of the Boudiccan Revolt yet, Derek Jacobi as Claudius (again), Rupert Graves as Paulinus, Kate Nash as Boudicca;
www.imdb.com/title/tt7715070/
Reply
https://vimeo.com/174541366
Reply
(04-08-2019, 05:49 PM)John1 Wrote: https://vimeo.com/174541366

Boudicca is a redhead, of course, because Britons are Celts and all Celts have red hair. Barbarians are 'always' dirty, clad in dull tones if not in fur, painted as if it was thrown on them. Romans are 'always' marching and lined up in tight formations, but then fight one on one in utter chaos. Armour is made of leather. And bracers of course. Bracers everywhere. E-ve-ry-where.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
[Image: artgroepbutton.jpg]
Reply


Possibly Related Threads…
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Armchair Wall walking mcbishop 3 2,345 01-11-2012, 03:22 AM
Last Post: Vindex

Forum Jump: