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Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand.
John1 Wrote:So how does that differ from supporting Nathan or Deryk?

It's simple, really. I think that the area makes sense strategically but I have not decided on a specific site yet. I will consider Nathan and Deryk's suggestions on the ground and perhaps come up with some ideas of my own and then post my conclusions.

John1 Wrote:The visits make this game a far richer experience, enjoy it,

Absolutely. I intend to.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
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offence bar - just egging you on..... any bar very welcome today.

Garrison and depot - yeah mine but it's good isn't it..... well ok I nicked the idea from this place; 
https://historicengland.org.uk/services-...n-bec-7257

Picture - this is edge vegetation where the light can get to the plants, the deeper woods wouldn't have this kind of growth under the main canopy

Kaye test - sounds like you passed that one then
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I've sure you've all been looking at topographic-map.com for months and years, but it's new to me: coloured topographic mapping of the UK, overlaid on a street map.

Here's New Ground, for example. And here's Church Stowe.

Endless fun! I've already found about three new sites that look very interesting... [Image: smile.png]
Nathan Ross
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https://vimeo.com/316624521 noted for reference only, not for discussion here..... (edited in response to the post below)
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John1 Wrote:https://vimeo.com/316624521

Oh dear. I think this may turn this thread into what is happening on RAT Facebook, which is discussing movies about the Romans. As to where the historical battle took place, I think you guys are about 50 posts from finding the answer. So keep up the good work.
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https://www.academia.edu/36450824/The_cu..._with_Rome
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John1 Wrote:https://www.academia.edu/36450824/The_cu..._with_Rome

He seems to take a long time to say very little. If Prasutagus was a client king, as I have always understood him to have been, you would expect the Iceni and Rome to be on relatively friendly terms, if that is his point. And there are some silly mistakes - 'Cambden', 'Legio XI Hispania' and a reference to the Solent when he presumably means the Wash (unless there is a Solent in Norfolk that I don't know about, of course). It is that sort of carelessness that makes one doubt his scholarship as a whole.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
Reply
Renatus Wrote:

It's simple, really. I think that the area makes sense strategically but I have not decided on a specific site yet. I will consider Nathan and Deryk's suggestions on the ground and perhaps come up with some ideas of my own and then post my conclusions.

Michael if you are still visiting the Tring area it might be also worth visiting Ivinghoe Beacon and looking out between there and towards Whipsnade Zoo (you can see the chalk lion on the hill) to where the Brythons may have been gathered.

This sight does seem to have many of the attributes needed for a strong defence and apart from a river meets all the criteria set out by Steve but does have springs in the local area.

It also effectively sits on the Icknield Way.

I was mightily impressed with the area when I was there a few weeks ago.

PS: John thanks for the recent recordings - excellent summation....
Deryk
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Theoderic Wrote:Michael if you are still visiting the Tring area it might be also worth visiting Ivinghoe Beacon and looking out between there and towards Whipsnade Zoo (you can see the chalk lion on the hill) to where the Brythons may have been gathered.

I think that you suggested this site in your post of 15 September 2018. My feeling at the time was that it pointed the wrong way, as it would require the rebels to be approaching from the north. I was also dubious about the Pitstone site that you suggested in the same post but, on reflection, perhaps that merits more attention than I credited it with at first sight.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
Reply
Renatus wrote:

My feeling at the time was that it pointed the wrong way

I have been a little confused by the statement that the Chivery Top site and the Ivinghoe Beacon site are facing the wrong way.

The Chivery Top site faces side on to  Akeman Street and the defile is in a position where it can only be approached from the front. The Brythons could come from the North the South the West or the East of the country but can only approach the Roman front line straight on because of the topography.

The same is true of Ivinghoe Beacon with its steeply sloping sides so the battle line can only be approached from the front.

It does depend on interpretation of the texts but it seems that the whole country was up in arms so as it is implied that not only was Paulinus (with the refugees)  being pursued by the Brythons chasing them from London and St Albans but that also he was exposed to ambush along the road as long as he was travelling.

His comments regarding his concern about protecting his rear and ensuring that the enemy was only at his front would also reinforce the view that he was expecting to be attacked from more than one direction and possibly by more than one force. 

Therefore it would be essential that he chose a site that could only be attacked from one direction and therefore couldn't rely on just blocking of a through route.
Deryk
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This months National Geographic History has academia bottling naming a battle site again, and implying 60 AD again..... they still don't seem to be reading the "Thread of Authority"..... or updating their thinking from 1968... easy money I guess https://www.nationalgeographic.com/histo...inst-rome/
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(10-27-2019, 08:43 PM)John1 Wrote: academia bottling naming a battle site again, and implying 60 AD again.....

Weirdly enough, the article's by Richard Hingley, a proper academic and co-author of one of the better books on the revolt (Boudica: Iron Age Warrior Queen).

The date thing he explains by citing a recently discovered writing tablet, but since (as we've discussed before) the tablet in question dates to October AD62 I really don't see how this can be so. Does he really think that a major city and transport hub would still be in ruins an entire year after the suppression of the revolt? A city built of wood, at that...

He also implies that St Albans was completely destroyed by 'Boudica’s devastating attack' - which is contradicted in his own book - and claims there are 'thick layers of burning dating to A.D. 60', which there are not.

As for 'Boudica’s forces... may have included female warriors', I have nothing to say! [Image: sad.png]

Altogether a very misleading article, which (unsurprisingly) finds it 'likely that the clash took place in the Midlands of modern-day England', for no reason at all.
Nathan Ross
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Nathan Ross Wrote:As for 'Boudica’s forces... may have included female warriors', I have nothing to say! [Image: sad.png]

I've already said it!

https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/showth...#pid348022 (first paragraph)
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
Reply
So why is it Academics don't engage in this sort of research? I get the impression the finding of Brunanburh was down to Wirral Archaeology an amateur group, and only Michael Wood had the bottle to name a site from Academia. You'd think finding this Boudiccan site would be a career maker for an academic but in the 10 years we've been doing this I haven't seen or found a single academic engaging in a meaningful way. I may be missing a body of literature but I haven't seen so much as an undergrad dissertation looking at the sites in a comparative manner. I find the lack of engagement in such a topic baffling, and the leaning on Webster and generic "could be anywhere" incredibly lazy. It's here somewhere after all. No doubt if it gets nailed the academics will be all over it for REF points in manageable chunks with no reputation at stake. It can't be very comfortable sitting on that fence that long waiting for the amateurs to do the research for you..... where's the fun and self actualisation in that?
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(10-28-2019, 12:00 PM)John1 Wrote: why is it Academics don't engage in this sort of research?... the finding of Brunanburh was down to Wirral Archaeology an amateur group

Perhaps because the chances of a definite 'find' are so very slim? As we've discussed, there's not much likelihood that this battle site, were it located, would yield anything like certain evidence; this would be a place within settled Romanised territory, probably on or close to a road used for centuries and more or less 'picked clean'. Beyond (maybe) a few lost hobnails and some stray arrow heads or bits of armour, and (very maybe) some sort of bone or ash deposit, any site would have to remain 'possible' at best.

Most battlefield identifications (in the UK) seem to rely on amateur groups, or local societies. They have the time, I suppose, and they're close to the area? I keep meaning to try and contact the Berkhamsted & District Archaeological Society, who did the Tring/Cow Roast excavations, and see if any of the finds are still kept somewhere, although since the last dig was in the 70s or 80s I doubt I'd have much luck!

Unless a battle site offered up paradigm-shifting amounts of material evidence, or caused us to rewrite our understanding of the historical narrative (which this one - unless it turned out to be in northern Britain, or Wales, or something, would not!) then the actual geographical location would be of no more interest to an academic historian than to the average armchair enthusiast.


(10-28-2019, 12:00 PM)John1 Wrote: where's the fun and self actualisation in that?

Most academics these days seem to get their kicks from denouncing people and cancelling each other on Twitter!
Nathan Ross
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