Thread Rating:
  • 5 Vote(s) - 4.6 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand.
Both these definitely add substance to this quest, but, what is the Quest?It seems to rest on Paulinus being "cautious".Having heard of the defeat of the IX ,and at best being uncertain of the whereabouts of the II ,careful would be best.He had to find out what was going on without loosing his troops,this is his dilemma. We know everything else but lose sight of strategy.How could Paulinus stop the chariots ,the biggest threat to his infantry from getting involved?.Answer to this question.How do you stop chariots? What did Gaius Suetonius Paulinus  Know?Now is cautious and careful safe?.!!!  The next topic to flick through is  Movements of Verulamium region potters AD 60-120.This does get a little involved if you double check recorded finds but interesting nonetheless.To summarise, the movement travels both north and  west.West makes a lot of sense "runaway!"However i can see no reason to travel north at the time unless the army protect them.Overlaying the" pathway of destruction" theory would then seem a reasonable next step.The next piece i have made up so health warning. Paulinus was presented with a military and political problem.To summarise .I believe he left most of his army in the midlands,swiftly travelled to London.He saved politically important and wealthy residents and collected more from St Albans , then returned to his army.I doubt he expected to fight far south of the river Nene ,preventing the revolt from spreading.This secured the province and his own political future.I even question if he expected Postumus to support him,this was personal rivalry and everything to play for.If Postumus saves the day that would not have looked so good. And the rest is history
Ian
Reply
Nathan Ross Wrote:I was amused by the claim that although we don't know the site of the battle, "we do know it's called the Battle of Watling Street"... [Image: tongue.png]

I have now steeled myself to watch the programme and can endorse the criticisms made of it. However, with regard to Nathan's quotation, I think that, although slight, the emphasis seemed to be on the word 'called'. Nevertheless, Watling Street was still the centre of the discussion.

A major disappointment was that, although there was filming at Mancetter and Church Stowe, I got no impression of how the topography related to Tacitus' description of the battle site. Not a 'narrow defile' in sight, as far as I could see. What we need is someone with a video camera to go to the proposed sites and pan around, so that we can see how the landscape matches the description.

I have made contact with the treasurer of the Atherstone Civic Society and have ordered Margaret Hughes' book. However, I see that the subtitle is 'The Latin, The Land, The Logistics'. However, if the reference to Latin means that she makes the same bad point about Tacitus' Latin that she seems to make in the programme, it will not do much to enhance the credentials of Mancetter.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
Reply
I want to put on record Farthingstone in Northamptonshire is the site of the battlefield.There is clear evidence of large V shaped double ditch defences and a roman camp with room for 10,000 troops.This sits at the end of a valley surrounded on 3 sides by woodland.The defile ( geographical feature) is approached by a long rampart with brooks on both sides preventing the use of chariots. From within the defences there are clear views all around as far as Watling Street, controlling the valley floor. This place is a natural fortress . I will not trawl through Tacitus or speculate on troop movement but I must point out the V shaped ditches and the change in road direction that betrays its past I have worked with John Pegg and thank Steve Kaye for his good work on the subject . I have recorded this location on Historic Environment Records Northamptonshire and it will appear when the system is updated. Find what you enjoy and enjoy what you find . Owein
Ian
Reply
It's getting hard to keep up with the flurry on Boudicca stuff coming out in 2020. Now the Northamptonshire Battlefields Society have waded in with a paperback which does a compare and contrast between the Northamptonshire candidates. This one is available on Amazon;

   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cStsO7QOl0Q

512,818
Reply
John,
I have been viewing to your 'Stalking Boudicca' recordings again and am intrigued by your comment that someone claimed to have spoken to Graham Webster and said that Webster confessed to not actually believing in Mancetter as the site of the battle. Who was this and is it in print anywhere?
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
Reply
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Q-jGLIiHGs&t=31s

I don't believe it was put into print, the statement was made at the 2013 Warwick University conference (On Boudiccas Trail https://www.academia.edu/12774243/On_Bou...ast_battle ) by the Clifton on Dunsmore team of Chris Kinsella and Kerry Sullivan during their presentation. I can't recall if it was Chris or Kerry, nor whether it was first of second hand, I got the impression it was first hand. I have heard it at another time and will scan old emails to find it. 

Chris/Kerry if you are on here please chip in......

Addendum, this is in their 2013 paper and points to a pers com from Webster;

   

   
Reply
I saved the Sullivan and Kinsella webpage on Boudica in 2009. They wrote:

"The noted archaeologist Jack Lucas, currently excavating Tripontium, the Roman road station on Watling Street near Rugby, thinks Mancetter is an unlikely site. He argued with Webster, his friend and mentor that the Romans needed to secure reinforcements, supplies and communications from the rear. Lucas believes the battlefield was to the east of the Fosse Way. Webster privately admitted to Lucas that his identification of Mancetter was weak and was intended to provoke debate."

Regards, Steve Kaye
Reply
(05-20-2020, 08:42 AM)Steve Kaye Wrote: I saved the Sullivan and Kinsella webpage on Boudica in 2009. They wrote:

"The noted archaeologist Jack Lucas, currently excavating Tripontium, the Roman road station on Watling Street near Rugby, thinks Mancetter is an unlikely site. He argued with Webster, his friend and mentor that the Romans needed to secure reinforcements, supplies and communications from the rear.  Lucas believes the battlefield was to the east of the Fosse Way. Webster privately admitted to Lucas that his identification of Mancetter was weak and was intended to provoke debate."

Regards, Steve Kaye
Thanks for this Steve, it's a shame that we don't have Webster or Lucas around to lift this beyond "hearsay" although it sounds reasonable to me making it closer to a grounded fact than most of the material we have to work with in this game. I think Lucas makes an obvious point about the Fosse Way, but I know others don't; https://www.archaeology.co.uk/articles/o...-lucas.htm
Reply
Did Lucas put his 'east of the Fosse Way' theory into print?
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
Reply
Renatus Wrote:Did Lucas put his 'east of the Fosse Way' theory into print?

I can answer my own question. It appears as Appendix 3 in Sullivan and Kinsella's 2013 publication 'Boudica's Last Battle'.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
Reply
Knowing what we now do of Webster's opinion of Mancetter, the tongue-in-cheek comment in Dudley & Webster 'The Rebellion of Boudicca' (p.152), 'The British antiquary clings firmly to the belief that all historical events can be placed on the map, and that most of them happened in his own county . . . The present authors, it will be seen, follow the tradition of the British antiquary', may be interpreted as an invitation to others to take a less parochial attitude and to look further afield for the site of the battle. Unfortunately, despite caveats in their text (p.74) - 'It is a suggestion, no more'; ' . . . with due caution' - many subsequent commentators seem to have accepted their identification of Mancetter as the battle site at face value and not to have troubled themselves to look elsewhere.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
Reply
I blame that Michael Wood bloke, he seemed pretty emphatic in 1980..... who would ever think to challenge St. Michael..... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FlbP20Ex9c&t=1837s
Reply
(05-21-2020, 07:36 PM)John1 Wrote: he seemed pretty emphatic in 1980..... [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FlbP20Ex9c&t=1837s][/url]

Ha, yes! Michael Wood's great - the flares, the sheepskin jacket, the air of intensely hip earnestness... TV productions of today are so lacklustre by comparison. [Image: wink.png]

But I think you're right about him being the source for a lot of the popular mythology too:

"Meanwhile, Governor Suetonius Paulinus was riding hell for leather, day and night, for London... The place is called Mancetter..."

The best bit, though, is at 28.50:

"... in fulfillment of some religious ritual demanded by the druids. Which brings us... to these!" - and he reaches off camera and comes back holding two skulls. And you know that somebody was just standing there with the skulls, waiting to hand them to him! It's almost Shatneresque.
Nathan Ross
Reply
Nathan Ross Wrote:Ha, yes! Michael Wood's great - the flares, the sheepskin jacket,

I recall a comedy programme at the time satirising his 'In Search of . . .' series as 'In Search of a Tighter Pair of Jeans'.

EDIT: Or it might have been Private Eye.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
Reply
But it is fascinating to track the evolution of an historical factoid (the idea that Suetonius Paulinus went on a 'hell for leather' recon expedition to London, then rejoined his troops in the Midlands):

Initially suggested by Francis Haverfield c.1900, mentioned in print by Charles Oman in 1910, developed by Donald Dudley and Graham Webster in 1962, further developed (along with the Mancetter site) by Webster alone in 1978, popularised on TV by Michael Wood in 1980 and by Peter Snow in 2004, and subsequently adopted as fact by any number of enthusiasts and historians, including the majority of those commenting on the subject to this day...
Nathan Ross
Reply


Possibly Related Threads…
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Armchair Wall walking mcbishop 3 2,927 01-11-2012, 03:22 AM
Last Post: Vindex

Forum Jump: