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Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand.
(10-07-2020, 11:04 AM)Renatus Wrote: I have just looked up Boudicca [sic ] on the online version of the Encyclopaedia Britannica and that says that the site of the battle is thought to be near Fenny Stratford.  Where does that come from?

That does seem to go back a long way! If you click on 'See Article History' you can follow the revisions right back; the revision of January 2009 already has the note about Fenny Stratford, so presumably it dates from the original text of the article, put up in 1998 and revised in 2001 and 2005.

There are a few other references online to Boudicca and Fenny Stratford, but most seem to relate back to that 'Britannica' article. This one apparently dates to 1 March 2003 but might have been revised subsequently; this one (in Polish!) is also 2003. This guy's comments on his photo date to 2009.

(There's also this published source from 2004, but it seems to postdate the article and is virtually quoting from it.)

But if the heading stating that the text was originally published in 1975 is correct, then this might the original source of our factoid! Amazing where people get their history from nowadays...
Nathan Ross
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I have found an earlier reference to the site being near to Fenny Stratford.  Again, it is in the article on Boadicea in the Encyclopaedia Britannica, this time the 1964 edition.  From some of the phraseology, it is evidently adapted from Haverfield's original article and the author seems to be Ian Richmond.  So it looks as if he may be the culprit.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
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(10-07-2020, 09:26 PM)Renatus Wrote: the author seems to be Ian Richmond.  So it looks as if he may be the culprit.

Well done!

Still, we have no clue why they should have decided on the location. Fenny Stratford seems to offer very little. If they'd opted for Woburn or something then at least we'd have a bit of terrain, but to be so oddly specific about such a undistinguished spot...
Nathan Ross
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I can tighten up a bit on the appearance of Fenny Stratford in the Encyclopaedia Britannica.  The Hathi Trust has some editions, although most volumes are on Limited Viewability only.  This means that you cannot access the text and are only given the number of times that your search terms appear on any page.  Nevertheless, it is possible to work out where the article on Boadicea/Boudicca comes in Vol. 3 and therefore whether Fenny Stratford is mentioned in it.  I can say that it does not appear in 1959 but does in 1963.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
Reply
Employing my usual technique of cobbling together snippets from Google Books, I have reconstructed the 1964 Encyclopaedia Britannica article.  It reads as follows:

'BOADICEA (properly Boudicca), a British queen who in A.D. 60 led a revolt against Roman rule.  Her husband, Prasutagus, ruled the Iceni (in what is now Norfolk) as a client king under Roman suzerainty.  On his death in A.D. 60 without male heir, he had left his private wealth to his two daughters and the emperor Nero, trusting so to win imperial protection for his family.  Instead, his kingdom was annexed, his family humiliated and the chief tribesmen plundered.  While the provincial governor Suetonius Paulinus was absent in north Wales and Anglesey in 60, Boudicca and her people rose, and with them the whole of East Anglia.  They burned Colchester, Verulam, and the mart of London, and several military posts, massacred (according to Tacitus) 70,000 Romans and friendly Britons and cut to pieces the 9th legion marching from Lincoln to the rescue.  Paulinus, concentrating his army, met the Britons at a point thought to be near Fenny Stratford on Watling street.  In a desperate battle Rome regained the province.  Boudicca took poison or died of shock; thousands of Britons fell in the battle or were hunted down in the ensuing warfare.
In the end Rome adopted a milder policy, and Britain became peaceful.  But the retarded development and modest character of Romano-British remains in Norfolk suggest the severity with which the Iceni were crushed.                                       (I. A. Rd.)'

This can be seen as a drastically cut-down version of Haverfield's 1910 article ( https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/1911_Ency...a/Boadicea ) but retaining much of his phraseology.  At least, there is no cavalry dash.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
Reply
(10-09-2020, 08:39 PM)Renatus Wrote: '...a point thought to be near Fenny Stratford on Watling street....'

Thought by whom, I wonder? By Haverfield himself, it appears! Amazing - historians just making things up...!


(10-09-2020, 08:39 PM)Renatus Wrote: '...Boudicca took poison or died of shock...'

Of shock?! [Image: shocked.png]


(10-09-2020, 08:39 PM)Renatus Wrote: Haverfield's 1910 article... At least, there is no cavalry dash.

Ah yes: "Paulinus rushed back without waiting for his troops, but he could do nothing alone... At last Paulinus, who seems to have rejoined his army, met the Britons in the field."

Extraordinary. This is just total fiction!
Nathan Ross
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Nathan Ross Wrote:
Renatus Wrote:'...a point thought to be near Fenny Stratford on Watling street....'

Thought by whom, I wonder? By Haverfield himself, it appears! Amazing - historians just making things up...!

Not Haverfield, I don't think.  In his 1910 article, he only placed the battle somewhere between London and Chester.  In his 1914 letter to The Antiquary, he narrowed this to the southern Midlands but nowhere specific.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
Reply
(10-10-2020, 05:15 PM)Renatus Wrote: Not Haverfield, I don't think.

Ah yes, my mistake - Ian Richmond then, presumably.
Nathan Ross
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It seems that, at one time, Richmond held a more 'orthodox' opinion.  In his 1955 Penguin book Roman Britain (unchanged in the 2nd (1963) edition), he implies a cavalry dash: 'Paulinus himself reached London in time to take stock of the situation, but his main body of troops was far behind and he did not dare being trapped'.  He goes on to say that Paulinus sought to concentrate his troops and sent south-westwards for the 2nd Legion to join him, adding 'this implies that a concentration was planned somewhere near the junction of the Fosse Way with Watling Street, the two lines of communication necessary to such a plan of action.'  However, 'his hand was forced.  The Second Legion failed to move because its acting-commander disobeyed orders: commissariat difficulties were also acute in the late spring or early summer.  In the end Paulinus felt he could wait no longer, and chose a battle-ground which gave him the maximum advantage in the face of a developing attack.'  He does not commit himself as to where that battle-ground might have been, whether in the vicinity of the supposed concentration point or further afield.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
Reply
(10-11-2020, 03:53 PM)Renatus Wrote: ... 'this implies that a concentration was planned somewhere near the junction of the Fosse Way with Watling Street, the two lines of communication necessary to such a plan of action.' ...

I wonder whether anybody would even have considered a battle site north of the Chilterns prior to the popularisation of Haverfield's conception of Paulinus's movements?
Nathan Ross
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Nathan Ross Wrote:I wonder whether anybody would even have considered a battle site north of the Chilterns prior to the popularisation of Haverfield's conception of Paulinus's movements?

In his original EB article, Haverfield claimed that one writer had placed the battle at Chester but it would take a bit of research to find out who that was.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
Reply
In an attempt to track down the Chester reference, I entered 'Boadicea Chester' into Google Books.  You'd be surprised (or maybe you wouldn't) at the tosh that comes up.  One source has it that it was the 21st, not the 20th, Legion that was involved in the defeat of Boudica.  It actually says this in terms in a footnote.  Another says that, in its clash with the rebels, the 9th Legion was almost completely destroyed and its commander killed.  The first is hardly an authoritative source but the second was written by an American military writer who ought to have known better.  His original work dates from 1925 but it was reprinted, without alteration, in 2012.  Heaven help those new to this subject who rely upon this sort of stuff.  It is depressing how much misinformation there is out there.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
Reply
It has just dawned on me this thread has been running for over 10 years, thanks for the education and company....
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(10-21-2020, 01:04 PM)John1 Wrote: this thread has been running for over 10 years

So it has! I think this post was close enough to the decennial anniversary. A long strange journey indeed!
Nathan Ross
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John1 Wrote:It has just dawned on me this thread has been running for over 10 years, thanks for the education and company....

It is interesting to go back and see how one's views have changed and developed over the period.  When this present pandemic is over (if it ever is!), the protagonists in this thread could perhaps have a get-together.  The Roman Mancetter Heritage Centre might be a suitable venue!
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
Reply


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