Women Hoplites?

[nikolaos]

Epictetus,

Nice find! Reminds me to re-read Plato.

Cole

[ouragos]

This thread gives me an opportunity to ask a question that I suspect you cannot answer (as it would have probably already have been entered into this thread)... but about 10 years ago there was a grave find, somewhere in the scythian lands (and from vague memory it was the Ukraine) where a grave had been found with identifiable remnants of 2 sets of panoply and two sets of skeletal remains.

Both women.

The report, which I foolishly did not copy when it came to light, went very quiet and I have been unable to track down anything since.

Now there could be a myriad of explanations (should this find be as originally reported) but was it reclassified and, if so, has anyone heard of it?

[hoplite14gr]

Hmmm the issue is not about warrior women.
They definetly existed.

The question is if there is enough evidence about girls in the hoplite phalanx.
All the arguments offered are in the space of plausibility and possibility but not certainty.

Kind regards

[ouragos]

Sorry, thought I was clear - they had HOPLITE panoply with them. That, I would contest, does fit with the issue under discussion. Particularly considering that we have quite a wide timeframe, hoplites fought over a wide geographical area, they fought for as well as against the classical enemies and we know that scythians, in particular, were not overly fussy who they fought for.

NOW, if you are saying Greek women in a phalanx, that is a more refined discussion. But forgive me, I did not get that point from reading the thread. My apologies if I missed it.

[Dain II.]

Interessting, did they wear the panoply in the gravechamber or was it placed beside them?

I only know of two aspides in Scythia, which are published in Cernenkos "Die Schutzwaffen der Skythen", one from Kurdzipskij-kurgan in the Majkop-region, Aedygia, Russia; discovered in 1980 now in the St. Petersburg-eremitage, dating to 4th century BC. And one from Suchumi in Abchazia, Gerorgia; discovered in 1969, dating to 3rd century BC.

[ouragos]

The short answer is, I don't know - it was a snippet of an announcement about a find and then, as is not unsurprising with some finds, all went quiet and the source simply proved impossible to recover. I saw it when away somewhere and at a time when I could not easily capture or transfer details. My intent was to recover it when I returned home and by that time I lost all track of it.

Frustratingly my wife, who does oesteology of archeology as part of her 'portfolio' also saw it but didn't capture it either!

Been looking for a report ever since but suspect it is in a Russian paper somewhere if it has appeared at all.

What little memory I have is that there were discernable elements of everything, which will have included aspides. Quite what quality and quantity had survived was not in what I saw as it was a very recent find and little more than a headline announcement in amongst a number of others.

It is possible that when it was opened further there could have been more bones etc and further context which might change the initial suspicions completely. The bones were confirmed female though, that was clear - which is why my wife was interested as the mis-categorisation of graves by gravegoods alone in the past is one of her pet hates - at the time she made a point that if this had been opened 5 or 10 years earlier and the weapons found, then it would automatically have been categorised 'male' and no-one would have checked the bones.

Anyway, I was just wondering if it has surfaced again.

[hoplite14gr]

No ouragos I think you are on topic.

The essence of the question on the Russian finds are the shields.
Skythians used Greek style equipment such as corinthian helemts long after the Greeks had abandoned them.

If the shields were heavy or their weight that can be deducted from the remains as being comparable to Greek hoplite shields
then we can see women hoplites in a different light. Do you by any chance remember place names?
I can ask my wife to google it in Russian.

Kind regards

[Macedon]

Actually, we have texts talking about women going to battle as men, but most are of course considered exceptions, even in the original texts. In Polyaenus' 8th book a list of women employing stratagems is given, some of them martial. For example Telesilla (Pol.8.33, Paus 2.20), who dressed up Argive women as warriors and fended off the Lacaedemonians of Cleomenes. On the other hand in Pol.8.49, we have Archidamis insisting that the women of Sparta help their husbands against Pyrrhus, but as Polyaenus clearly describes : "The women therefore insisted on sharing in the operations of war; some fetched the tools, other dug in the ditches, some again were employed in sharpening the weapons, and other assisted in dressing the wounded." Deidamia, daughter of Pyrrhus "attacked and took Ambracia" (Pol.8.52) and so she clearly was in charge of the operations and most probably carried military gear. Artemisia is also an example of a female warlord. She actively took part in the battle of Salaminae, so she has to have been properly equipped (also given in Pol.53). Mania (Pol.8.54), not a Greek but "she always went to battle, drawn in a chariot; she gave her orders at the time of action, formed her lines, and rewarded every man who fought well, as she saw he deserved". Others include Amage (Pol.8.56), an unnamed priestess of Athena, who led the hoplites in full armor in Pellene (Pol.8.57), Cynane "the daughter of Philippus, was famous for her military knowledge; she commanded armies, and in the field charged at the head of them. In an engagement with the Illyrians, she herself slew their queen with a fatal blow to the throat; and she defeated the Illyrian army with great slaughter." (Pol.8.60). In this last extract we also have the Illyrian queen actively participating in the battle and getting killed in the process. Arsinoe is also attested by Polybius (5.83.3) to have been present at Raphia alongside her brother Ptolemy, but no details are given as to whether she actively took part in the battle.

[ouragos]

It was the shiled remains that were used to support the find of a "grave of 2 femail hoplites", but quite what there was, as I said earlier, was very scant and implied (from memory). Now it could be that someone mis-categorised, realised their error and kept quiet about it in embarrassment - hence it going quiet. It might be that this is still under investigation as a part of a larger activity, and thus other aspects of the dig are taking priority. It could be many things...

It would just be nice to track it back as it seems such an interesting find if it is true.

[hoplite14gr]

Hmm pity for the Russian finds. It could have given a new view of the issue

Telesila and the Argive women were holding hoplite weapons but did not fought in phalanx and Cleomenes aborted.
Hellenistic Spartan women probably fought with missiles as did the the Aetoloan and Phokian women against the Celts.
Cynane might have been a horseman. (most likely for North Greek nobility)


In absence of corroboration I stand by my opinion that we have women warriors but NOT hoplites.

Kind regards