Double breasted or center fastening?

[PMBardunias]

You have all seen the vase image below. Along with many others, I thought this to be a pretty clear example of a double breasted Tube and Yoke. Now I'm not so sure. The problem is with the "tabs" that would be at the shoulders. I don't see these elsewhere. What I would expect from a majority of images is a raised section in the center of the chest. So rather than tabs on the edges, I think these "tabs" may come together to form the raised center.

I have been skeptical of center closing T-Ys, because most images that are cited as such can be shown to be artists struggling with the perspective of a side closing armor. This does not invalidate double breasting, simply this commonly cited image.

Someone may have suggested this before.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Only,this raised chest cover can be achieved also with overlapping. The belly part would be double and the chest would only be one layer.
I have been thinking about this vase a lot also,but i have to say none of these explanations make much sense to me.
A cuirass whose chest part covers partly the shoulders is the Patroclos' one from the famous vase. Only it looks nothing like this one.
:roll:

[PMBardunias]

Only,this raised chest cover can be achieved also with overlapping. The belly part would be double and the chest would only be one layer

I agree that it can be done that way, but it clearly is not being done that way in the image I posted. As to Patroclus, his armor is far different. The scallop at the neck is needed because the central portion is too high without it, cutting into the neck. The high front is quite clear on that vase, as is the fact that it is one layer showing.

There are images that don't show the raised front, but usually they are poor quality renders. One example of a good artist appearing to make this mistake is the famous Douris arming scene. The fellow who appears to be fastening the tube in front also lacks a high front while the other images on the same vase all have ornate upper chest sections.

[rocktupac]

Only,this raised chest cover can be achieved also with overlapping. The belly part would be double and the chest would only be one layer

I agree that it can be done that way, but it clearly is not being done that way in the image I posted. As to Patroclus, his armor is far different. The scallop at the neck is needed because the central portion is too high without it, cutting into the neck. The high front is quite clear on that vase, as is the fact that it is one layer showing.

There are images that don't show the raised front, but usually they are poor quality renders. One example of a good artist appearing to make this mistake is the famous Douris arming scene. The fellow who appears to be fastening the tube in front also lacks a high front while the other images on the same vase all have ornate upper chest sections.

I'm pretty sure I know which vase you're talking about, and it does seem like the warrior dressing has a center-fastening cuirass. But, as you say, the others have a high chest while the warrior dressing does not, leading one to believe that the artist has made an error. The depiction of the armor in the first image you posted was clearly messed up by the artist; in reality, this cuirass would have abnormally long shoulder flaps and pteruges that ended somewhere around the belly button. The proportions are horribly portrayed.

There is another painting that shows a warrior dressing in what appears to be another center-fastening cuirass, this time the center is raised higher and clearly wraps up around the arms.

[Dan Howard]

Looking at the pteruges can give an idea. If there are two rows on the front and only one at the rear then it is double-breasted. How many illustrations show pteruges like this?

[rocktupac]

Looking at the pteruges can give an idea. If there are two rows on the front and only one at the rear then it is double-breasted. How many illustrations show pteruges like this?

In nearly 1,000 images depicting the 'tube-and-yoke' I'm not sure I have seen a cuirass like the one you describe with a double row in front and a single row in back. I'm almost certain I've never seen one. Do you have an example?

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Looking at the pteruges can give an idea. If there are two rows on the front and only one at the rear then it is double-breasted. How many illustrations show pteruges like this?

Of all those t&y tebictions,in how many can we see both the front and the back?
Not to mention that it i seasy to add a second layer of pteryges in all the back part.
And also,the Vergina iron cuirass that presumably copies closely similar cuirasses of organic matterials,is double fronted!!!
Khaire
Giannis

[PMBardunias]

Scott:

That image is one I would say shows an attempt at portraying side fastening, not front fastening. If you look at the way the material of his chiton is gathered at both shoulders, its clear that the fastening is going on to the side of his body. This is why the panel is higher on one side, since it is the front panel.

Dan:

I think it was Jason who suggested that a while back, but I can find no evidence for it. I can find two laters of Pteruges and one layer, as well as the inexplicable one layer right on top of the other, but no images of differing front and backs.

[immortal]

To me it clearly looks like the abdominal section is designed to be in two layers. Each has its own layer of Pteruges, so when one is layered on top of the other they overlap.
The tab on the top end of each abominal section corresponds to the shoulder flaps, when one is layered on top of the other they will both still be visable.

[PMBardunias]

To me it clearly looks like the abdominal section is designed to be in two layers. Each has its own layer of Pteruges, so when one is layered on top of the other they overlap.
The tab on the top end of each abominal section corresponds to the shoulder flaps, when one is layered on top of the other they will both still be visable.

That is a common interpretation, and one I shared until recetly. There are three problems:

I know of no image with two layers of Pteruges in the front and not all around.

There are no images of "tabs" at the shoulder without a raised middle panel to cover the upper chest. Such tabs are not needed in any case because the flaps would cover them.

The ability of the armor to wrap around is an illusion because the man's forearm is unnaturally elongated. The side panel is as long as his forearm and would have to wrap around both his side and his chest. With a realistic forearm length this is too short.

[PMBardunias]

That one is a problem because there is no rise in the center, which would leave too much exposed below the neck.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

It is very certain that double breasted AND center fastened thorakes existed. I mean thorakes that were both things. I have posted this one before.

Khairete
Giannis

[PMBardunias]

Is there other evidence for double breasted besides the iron corselet from vergina (and that image that started this thread)? Do you know for sure if the bottom front panel actaully extends all the way across the front of the armor? It is very difficult to tell if it actually goes all the way to the right side from the pictures I have.

In that armor above, I had always assusmed that the vine-like thing was some sort of "belt" , but the vertical line is over top of it, so it must be a painted on/applied/embroidered decoration.

[rocktupac]

It is very certain that double breasted AND center fastened thorakes existed. I mean thorakes that were both things. I have posted this one before.

Khairete
Giannis

Giannis: Do you have any other images of this fresco? The detail is amazing, I have never seen it like this before.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4120/476 ... d77c_b.jpg
Here it is. And this is half of the scene. It is from an etruscan tomb,showing the slaughter of 12 Troyan Princes as sucrifice by Achilles on the funerary pyre of Patroclos. it is invaliably accurate and detailed!
Achilles,who is the one i posted above, wears a typical etruscan tube and yoke, almost identical to the one the Mars of Todi wears. Interestingly, despite its detail,there are no fittings shown to secure the closure of the two parts. Notice the very carefully and in my belief accurately,it doesn't closed dead center but slightly to the left! This correscponds with other cuirasses shown on vases whick are scaled on one side,and the scales stop a bit farther than the center. To me this is another indication that the cuirass is double breasted.
Paul,i have also noticed the same thing,the artists is careful to show that the red decoration on the belly is jjust that,a decoration. The vertical red hem is of a different colour than the horizontal decoration and goes over it.
The other cuirass is more typical,but for some reason it also gives me the impression that is double breasted. But it's just my feeling,perhaps because the front part is attached to the side a bit more centered than i would expect.
Khairete
Giannis

EDIT: i must have been wrong,Achilles is most probably the one that is actually sloughtering them.