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New hoplite book
#16
Quote:I have practiced both styles and I find both usable, left over right (///) being best suited when the hoplites wish to be able to engage in personal combat and have freedom of movement, right over left (\\\\\\) when order is necessary as during a challenging battle in lines. I also had posted an image I had made to make my ideas visible.

That image is great. I happened upon some footage from a show on hoplites where they came together as if in othismos, and you can see this problem play out in reality:

http://hollow-lakedaimon.blogspot.com/2 ... ismos.html

Part of the problem in understanding the hoplite phalanx is that the formation is somehwere between a simple battle-line with high mobility and wide spacing and a shield-wall with limited mobility. No one would have a problem accepting that a Roman would give up individual mobility to form a testudo or the linear version, the late Roman fulcum, wherein not one line of shields, but two lines were superimposed one on top of the other. See Phillip Rance's excellent article on the Fulcum. The hoplite phalanx was an exceptionally mobile shield-wall, perhaps because the aspis allowed the "wall" to be formed only at the last moment and with great ease. Each hoplite with his aspis was in effect a tetris piece or building block and the wall built up very quick and with little confusion or even extensive preplanning. A follow-up note for reenactors: try this, have your men hold their aspises against their chests so that man and shield are one unit and form a line. They should fall together very quickly as a line- like bricks coming into place to form a wall. Once the line is formed and your spacing set, you can take on a 45 degree stance to spear fight, then go bac kinto your shield when the pushing starts.

The true genius of the aspis has yet to be fully recognized.
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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#17
No I want to put no one in the mercy of the "legal eagles".
But a list of questions is not a bad idea in my opinion.
We will try "shield against chest" in our next training session and I will post conclusions.

Othismos - The only chance is if someone gets feedback and aid from professional stunt-man.
So far we put men with shields push (for VERY LITTLE time) against a shield-less mass instructed "not to hold its own".
The idea is to give front-rankers the feel of rear ranks pushing them.
Because of the danger involved they have not the "opposite push" experience.

Sword: The only way we have found to be able to use all types of swords in synaspismos is this:
http://s254.photobucket.com/albums/hh84 ... 840026.jpg

We still research the kopis:
http://www.strategikon.com/iwc2010gr/gallery.htm (middle of page)

Kind regards
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#18
Quote:Sword: The only way we have found to be able to use all types of swords in synaspismos is this:

I have come to this conclusion as well. Luckily, we have many images of hoplites using the sword in just this manner. It has been referred to as the "Harmodios strike" after famous statues of that event. I've written on it here:

http://hollow-lakedaimon.blogspot.com/2 ... -blow.html

Note two things from your image: The front ranks cannot hit this man with their dorys. Once he is within range they must switch to swords or hope that the men behind them can protect them. Were I right now to have to fight in a hoplite phalanx, I would drop my spear and move in like this because I cannot compete in doratismos with highly trained men. This may be what happened in history, the othismos may have grown out of a need for lesser trained men to close in on the highly trained retainers of Tyrants for example. As Xenophon makes clear, anyone can wield a sword in close like this.

Also, the sword can be brought around the head in a variety of strikes that we see on vases. These positions can be effective wards as well as strikes.
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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#19
Thank you for dealing with the "Harmodios Blow". The right most men had some freedom of movement but the rest probably not.
I strongly believe that this blow and other "wide sweeping blows" were delivered after the opposition was broken or in skirmishes between unformed groups (deck fights and wall fights included).
You probably give strong backbone in the development of othismos. Its not perhaps the only reason but one of the many good reasons for its development.

We have found that is easier to aim with your dory to the opponent right that the opponent directly.
The impact is still a debatable issue. Probably a good number of dorys broke but what followed?
Does one continue by reversing the broken staff and jabs with the sauroter? (likely)
Does he drop it and draws sword? (again likely)
Razor sharp spear points can "disturb" rear-rankers at least until they break. We tested it with staffs (for safety reasons) and it seems to work.

Kind regards
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#20
Quote:I strongly believe that this blow and other "wide sweeping blows" were delivered after the opposition was broken or in skirmishes between unformed groups


I should be clearer. The image I posted was mostly to show a "warding" or gard position to protect the head, though overhand swings can occur if there is loosening of the ranks. The overhand strikes that work even at high density are strikes like a hammer, directly in front of you or to the man to your side. In this a Khopis is a great help because it can generate a lot of force with a small movement of the arm and a wrist snap. Blows with the pommel work well too. If you do manage to get your sword to his face or neck, a simple sawing motion would be most unpleasant. The most deadly blow is of course the one you show reenacted. That sword is perhaps a bit long to do it most efficiently. I attached an image of the ideal killing stab in dense othismos- down into the chest cavity from above. Think of the "dieing Gaul" statue or many gladiator depictions from ancient Rome.

Quote:Razor sharp spear points can "disturb" rear-rankers at least until they break. We tested it with staffs (for safety reasons) and it seems to work.

Stabbing blindly can be very disruptive to those men in the deeper ranks. This may be useful because it makes coordination in pushing very difficult. Pushing force must transmit all the way throug the file, if one member of the enemy file is leaning back and fighting that force, he is helping you!
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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#21
Well we agree that it is team work and anything that disrupt the "others" is used.
The 2nd image is an "ideal depiction". It was probably something like that when it happened.
The first image can work in "disrupted opponents" in my opinion.

I follow you logic with the kopis but I will comment after we test a few things.
Thanks for thoughts. They give ideas for testing things.

Kind regards
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#22
Quote:The 2nd image is an "ideal depiction". It was probably something like that when it happened.

I agree. As a reenactor, put yourself in the place of a hoplite who is in a crush of men and your opponent is attempting to stab down into the side of your neck like that. You can hardly move your body and you only have one hand to use to block him. You may be reaching across your body, so he has a strength advantage. Imagine how truly terrifying this type of combat was- and how brave the promachoi had to be. You better hope that the man behind you is there to protect you.

Compared to this, Achilles and Hector, thowing little darts at one another, were wimps.
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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#23
Close combat is always terrifying and the thought of close combat even more so.
That why the Spartan "agoge" took many measures to create "unflinching" soldiers.

Kind regards
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#24
Great discussion guys! I've got just a few stray thoughts on this subject: 1) The down-curving shape of the machaira or kopis is very well suited for the sort of downward slash that seems to best suit the phalanx, perhaps explaining why it was so popular (at least, outside of Sparta). Also, as a saber, this sword lacked a cutting edge on the backside, thus protecting those in the following ranks from a careless backstroke. 2) Rather than the second man in file, it must have been the last that could best use a sideways stance and put shoulder into shield for an all-out shove. In fact, this suggests how othismos could be controlled, with the rearmost hoplite executing orders to either push or pull back, the command then traveling forward from man to man as each experienced pressure or release from behind. Of course, such sophistication would be possible only for a well-trained phalanx, separating it from a simple mob in panic. This implies that Epaminondas' famous plea for "one more step" at Leuctra was initially aimed at the file-closers at the back of his array, who then bodily transmitted that request to the man immediately ahead, the message bumping up the file from back to back until reaching the front. - Fred Ray
It\'s only by appreciating accurate accounts of real combat past and present that we can begin to approach the Greek hoplite\'s hard-won awareness of war\'s potential merits and ultimate limitations.

- Fred Eugene Ray (aka "Old Husker")
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#25
Of course it was! It was the file closers who were responsible to oversee execution of orders, since no matter what signs were employed, it was very difficult to pass orders to men actually fighting. I also support that such an order would first pass from the file closers to the promachoi fighting to make sure everybody was aware and then coordinated through a new call.
Macedon
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#26
Yes, indeed; however, this does raise an interesting (and, perhaps, unanswerable) question about where Epiminondas was standing when he shouted his famous request (if this is not simply a myth). It seems that there was a strong custom in the Hellenic Era for commanders to take post near the front of the phalanx (maybe first three ranks) on the offensive wing (usually the right, but the left in the case of Thebes at Leuctra and Mantinea). The custom of generals leading a fight from the front seems to have been commonly followed from at least the time of Leonidas at Thermopylae through the career of Alexander the Great. And though this might have changed early on in the Hellenistic Era that immediately followed, I seem to recall that Plautus was still able to get a laugh out of his audiences in the late 3rd century by having one of his cowardly characters propose leading a brawl from the rear "in the manner of Pyrrhus," suggesting that (in Rome anyway) a 'real' commander was expected to be at the fore. Dangerous to be sure, but inspiring to the troops. Certainly, Epaminondas' opponent at Leuctra, Cleombrotus of Sparta, was near the front; and though he (like his fellow king Leonidas a century earlier) went down before the battle was over, he clearly inspired a long and dogged resistance by his badly outnumbered men prior to his death. Moreover, Epaminondas himself must have been close to the front in the last stages at Mantinea nine years later when he took that fatal javelin. These traditons are no doubt behind the idea that Epaminondas would have shouted his plea for "another step" at Leuctra from a forward position and then had it spread through the ranks by word of mouth. All the same, a post at the rear makes a lot more sense to me and certainly better fits the idea that orders regarding othismos (or most anything else) usually traveled from front to back.
It\'s only by appreciating accurate accounts of real combat past and present that we can begin to approach the Greek hoplite\'s hard-won awareness of war\'s potential merits and ultimate limitations.

- Fred Eugene Ray (aka "Old Husker")
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#27
Trmpeteers -usually linked with heralds were inheriting their position.
Armies were drilled to understand trumpet calls.
Also Euripides tragedies talk about "kymbala" and "crotala".

I know from personal experience that 2 forcibly beaten wooden sticks can be heard by a line of 9 men with Corinthian helmets
even if the person beating them walks 4 paces behind the stichos. The phalanx was going into battle obeying sound signals.
We know clearly that only the Spartan king was forced be law to be in the front rank. Other armies may not have been so strict.
Epameinondas at Lefktra might be in position to signal to a trumpeteer. In Mandinia he got the javelin while the enemy was dispersingand some psilos had the chance to cast a javelin. (Can't throw staff in locked shields formation)

Kind regards
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#28
Great points! I have always assumed that the salpinx or similar trumpets were the primary method of ordering 'pre-programed' maneuvers (the better-drilled the phalanx, the larger and more complex its toolbox of such maneuvers). However, I was not aware of the references to percussion devices, and your personal experience with this method makes for a very interesting and convincing demonstration. You're certainly right that Spartan commanders always seem to have been at or near the front, and there is a long list of their dead to confirm the sort of risk entailed therein. Of course, generals of many other poleis did go down in situations that suggest they were leading from the front as well (i.e. when on the winning side or where most of their army was able to safely withdraw); however, that doesn't by any means require that all commanders behaved that way. Each polis (and general) had unique styles, and directing a fight from the rear might well have been a common approach at Thebes. For example, this makes a lot sense with regard to the Theban Pagondas' ability to decisively order his reserve cavalry into action quite late in the battle at Delium. It might also explain why we known of so few victorious generals from Thebes dying on the battlefield (perhaps none if Mantinea is regarded as a draw rather than a true Theban victory). - Best regards, Fred
It\'s only by appreciating accurate accounts of real combat past and present that we can begin to approach the Greek hoplite\'s hard-won awareness of war\'s potential merits and ultimate limitations.

- Fred Eugene Ray (aka "Old Husker")
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#29
Quote:2) Rather than the second man in file, it must have been the last that could best use a sideways stance and put shoulder into shield for an all-out shove.

Agreed, I diagrammed this a while back, see blow.

Quote:In fact, this suggests how othismos could be controlled, with the rearmost hoplite executing orders to either push or pull back, the command then traveling forward from man to man as each experienced pressure or release from behind.


Because the force adds from back to front in each file, the "wave" has to start with the rear and be as simultaneous as the men can accoplish. In this he would be analogous to a coxwain in coordinating movement. We know that Spartans sang to eachother in the ranks just before battle and that "those who dance best for the gods were best in war." It is possible that they chanted in unison or perhaps the rear rankers did during othismos. This is a time honored way of coordinating effort and has given us sea shanties and via "work songs" the Blues! And just where do the flute players go after the Spartans start fighting?

Quote:Of course, such sophistication would be possible only for a well-trained phalanx, separating it from a simple mob in panic.

A mob is not so bad, as long as you keep them moving in the same direction, panic is the problem. You could take men and pile them into deep ranks and with little training they would be able to push pretty well. That said, like rowers, having a coxwain helps a great deal. Probably up over 8-12 ranks, coordination becomes difficult, but the added ranks still help. Because it is always easier to react to pressure than to initiate pushing, if your enemy pushes your 8 rnaks back into another 8 behind them, the front group forces the back group to coordinate their pushing. I hope that is as clear written as it is in my head. Smile Plus if by chance you did manage to get 25 or 50 ranks to push close to simultaneously for one cycle, it would be a hell of a force.
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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#30
Thanks, Paul, for some wonderful clarification! That the Spartans' 'musical' approach to battle could have had a function beyond simply keeping them in step prior to contact is very interesting and makes a lot of sense. Also, the idea that file depths beyond 12-16 might have been effective for othismos, but often might not have been due to coordination problems is intriguing. I wrestled with the issue of 'extreme' formation depth in reconstructing Delium. At that time, I concluded that Pagondas had most likely stacked his Thebans 25 deep only in part to improve his offensive capability (via othismos), but mostly to boost defensive ability. The latter would have come from absorbing enemy othismos before it reached the back of his files while crowding the line of retreat for those more heavily pressured in the first dozen or so ranks (something that seems to have happened among overly deep Greek, Persian and Carthaginian arrays alike on the second day at Thermopylae and during the final battle at Himera). Your observations suggest an attractive alternative view in which Pagondas might indeed have had a primarily offensive focus in filing so deep, but that coordination difficulties almost derailed him. (In fact, the Athenians held him off quite effectively, despite being only 8-deep, and came extremely close to carrying the day on their own right.) If so, the defensive benefits that I noted might have been more inadvertent than planned. It seems that Epaminondas' deep formation at Leuctra worked much the same, as the Spartans (outnumbered about 4-to-1 just like the Athenians at Delium) were also able to hold back the Thebans for quite a while. Unfortunately for them, their left came nowhere near the success that the Athenian 'off' wing (right) achieved at Delium (largely due to their opponents' disipline in avoiding contact). This would mean that Epaminondas didn't so much push his foes from the field by main force as use an unbreakable defense to wear them down until they gave way in exhaustion after losing their king as he fought at the front. - Best regards, Fred
It\'s only by appreciating accurate accounts of real combat past and present that we can begin to approach the Greek hoplite\'s hard-won awareness of war\'s potential merits and ultimate limitations.

- Fred Eugene Ray (aka "Old Husker")
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