05-06-2010, 12:02 AM
Cawkwell cited the Wresting skill quote as a reason for espousing opened order. I have a theory that the reference is to foot stomps and hooks, which can be done in the press. My evidence is meagre, but I'll show you what started me thinking this. Pausanias describes a contest of boys at Sparta that surely must have shared elements with the othismos- even if the lack of shield made true crowd pushing impossible. Here's the quote"
[quote]Paus. 3.14
8] And there is a place called Platanistas ?Plane-tree Grove? from the unbroken ring of tall plane trees growing round it. The place itself, where it is customary for the youths to fight, is surrounded by a moat just like an island in the sea; you enter it by bridges. On each of the two bridges stand images; on one side an image of Heracles, on the other a likeness of Lycurgus. Among the laws Lycurgus laid down for the constitution are those regulating the fighting of the youths.
9] There are other acts performed by the youths, which I will now describe. Before the fighting they sacrifice in the Phoebaeum, which is outside the city, not far distant from Therapne. Here each company of youths sacrifices a puppy to Enyalius, holding that the most valiant of tame animals is an acceptable victim to the most valiant of the gods. I know of no other Greeks who are accustomed to sacrifice puppies except the people of Colophon; these too sacrifice a puppy, a black bitch, to the Wayside Goddess. Both the sacrifice of the Colophonians and that of the youths at Sparta are appointed to take place at night.
[10] At the sacrifice the youths set trained boars to fight; the company whose boar happens to win generally gains the victory in Plane-tree Grove. Such are the performances in the Phoebaeum. A little before the middle of the next day they enter by the bridges into the place I have mentioned. They cast lots during the night to decide by which entrance each band is to go in. In fighting they use their hands, kick with their feet, bite, and gouge out the eyes of their opponents. Man to man they fight in the way I have described, but in the melee they charge violently and push one another into the water.[/quote]
My interest is in the word ???????. It is defined as "leaping upon", though in the above it is translated as kicks. Sometimes I have seen it translated as "flying kicks", which makes no sense in context with the other close in fighting they are doing. So based on the notion of "standing upon", I wonder if the term here could apply to a foot-stomp.
Note too how they fight man to man AND push all together as a group. Perhaps moving from one phase to the other. Here the "??????? " cannot be figurative, but a literal push into the moat.
I would love to know if they had ever used shields in this fight and how many ranks they formed.
[quote]Paus. 3.14
8] And there is a place called Platanistas ?Plane-tree Grove? from the unbroken ring of tall plane trees growing round it. The place itself, where it is customary for the youths to fight, is surrounded by a moat just like an island in the sea; you enter it by bridges. On each of the two bridges stand images; on one side an image of Heracles, on the other a likeness of Lycurgus. Among the laws Lycurgus laid down for the constitution are those regulating the fighting of the youths.
9] There are other acts performed by the youths, which I will now describe. Before the fighting they sacrifice in the Phoebaeum, which is outside the city, not far distant from Therapne. Here each company of youths sacrifices a puppy to Enyalius, holding that the most valiant of tame animals is an acceptable victim to the most valiant of the gods. I know of no other Greeks who are accustomed to sacrifice puppies except the people of Colophon; these too sacrifice a puppy, a black bitch, to the Wayside Goddess. Both the sacrifice of the Colophonians and that of the youths at Sparta are appointed to take place at night.
[10] At the sacrifice the youths set trained boars to fight; the company whose boar happens to win generally gains the victory in Plane-tree Grove. Such are the performances in the Phoebaeum. A little before the middle of the next day they enter by the bridges into the place I have mentioned. They cast lots during the night to decide by which entrance each band is to go in. In fighting they use their hands, kick with their feet, bite, and gouge out the eyes of their opponents. Man to man they fight in the way I have described, but in the melee they charge violently and push one another into the water.[/quote]
My interest is in the word ???????. It is defined as "leaping upon", though in the above it is translated as kicks. Sometimes I have seen it translated as "flying kicks", which makes no sense in context with the other close in fighting they are doing. So based on the notion of "standing upon", I wonder if the term here could apply to a foot-stomp.
Note too how they fight man to man AND push all together as a group. Perhaps moving from one phase to the other. Here the "??????? " cannot be figurative, but a literal push into the moat.
I would love to know if they had ever used shields in this fight and how many ranks they formed.
Paul M. Bardunias
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A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
