New hoplite book

[PMBardunias]

The biggest objections to othismos dissapear when you accept my definition of othismos only occuring at crowd-like densities and understand how crowds push:

"Battles were long, men can't push that long."

The crowd cannot do anything fast. As soon as it starts to advance it begins to lose cohesion. Once this occurs it cannot transfer force through the ranks effectively. That is not to say "pushing" stops, but by my definition, the type of pushing done by the first few ranks with not transfer of force from deep in the file is not true "othismos", but the same shield bashing and pushing seen in a clash of any group of close-in fighters such as during Roman battles. For the most part in the Crowd-Othismos men are simply standing and leaning. It is exhausting, perhaps moreso mentally than physically, but no more than active weapons duelling. The phalanx does not advance like a steam roller, but like a ratchet, with perdiodic loosening and tightening of the ranks. When a rapid advance does occur, like it must have as one side gave way, it was only the front ranks pushing and even they were doing more "herding" like we see with riot police and crowds, than pushing in the sense of othismos.

"Men can't fight and push"

When authors envisioned men bent over like rugby scrummers I could understand this objection. In the Crowd-Othismos, men are standing upright, and but for the extreme close range, their right arms are free to do whatever they wish with them. Obviously at this range you cannot use your dory against the man ahead of you, but the dory is some 8' long not an Iklwa, and could not be used at ant range approaching shield on shield contact. Swords, broken spears, fists, foot-stomps/hooks and teeth would be the order of the day.


"Twelve ranks of Spartans could not resist 50 ranks of Thebans for more than a few moments and yet we know that this phase of battle lasted for some time, with the Spartans even gaining ground to pick up their fallen King."

Not a problem when we understand that coordination of the crowds movements is what adds force in the othismos. There is only so much coordination you can get out of a file of 50 men. Even with a deep phalanx you probably can't get much more than 8-12 ranks perfectly coordinated. Thus, each side produces a forward thrust of about the same size at any given moment. As we wrote above, the depth acts like a wall behind your back. If you are pushed back, it forces all your ranks to tighten and become de facto coordinated to resist being moved. Twelve ranks of Spartans could push back the Thebans, but at a great disadvantage. The figurative "uphill battle" could only end one way.

I'll note that my distinction of pushing at different densities, with othimos only occurring at the tightest packed is not something that the Greeks would have made. They only speak of battles coming down to pushing, they did not disect the process and probably did not undertand it any better than a college kid rushing a stage at a rock concert. To them the whole process was one event.

[Old Husker]

Paul, your cogent and integrated analysis of othismos not only fits the laws of physics and data on crowd behavior, but also provides a poweful tool for making sense out of the ancient Greek battle record. Though othismos (of the sort that you so aptly describe) was a great combat technique and fundamental (along with spear-fighting) to the phalanx's offensive design, its slow development and often poorly coordinated process combined with many matches where neither side had sufficient advantage in pushing capability to allow other techniques to carry the day a majority of the time. I have estimated that only about 30% of the 173 hoplite engagements that I examined in the 5th century B.C. might have been primarily resolved by othismos, with a wide variety of other factors (like front fighting ability, lateral maneuvering, cavalry assaults, ight infantry actions, suprise attacks, etc.) being more dominant in the rest. Moreover, even when it was decisive, a good many of othismos' successes came against barbarian opponents ill-equipped to push back (othismos determining perhaps some two-thirds of the Greek victories in such encounters). It seems that hoplites with othismos were like prize-fighters possessed of a terrific right cross: no matter how great a punch it was, many bouts simply had to be won with jabs, uppercuts, footwork, etc. due to an opponent's particular skill-set or some other element up to and including plain old good or bad luck.- Regards, Fred

[PMBardunias]

It seems that hoplites with othismos were like prize-fighters possessed of a terrific right cross

That's a great analogy. For those who are just reading this theory for the first time, the factor that enables that "right cross" in the aspis. When held across the front of the body, it prevents you from getting crushed- specifically your diapgragm- which leads to asphyxiation and death in crowd disasters. This explains its odd bowl shape. Many other armies have found themselves in situation where pushing occured- the Romans "pushed' at Zama for instance and later at Strausbourg (with the knee!). The difference is that they could only withstand a limited amount of force for a short duration before they would push back against their own men in a fight for breath.

Hoplites behind their shields could sustain high pressure for a long time and survive much higher peak pressures. To switch from sports to comedy for analogies, hoplites could go to "11".

[hoplite14gr]

Some observations.
In Delion Pagwndas lead the thebans 25 deep and charged the least reliable left Athenian flank. (Reliable men were usually on the right)
The other Beotians - traditionally formed - suffered the attcka of the relialbe Athenina right wing which might have included the lite logadae.
Pagwndas crushed all infrond of him and the turned to aid the other Beotians.

At Lefctra except the gradual development of the "push & shove" at the very begining the Spartans were slightly better positioned trying to overlap the Theban flank. That gave them "breathing space" initially - but not for long.

The point of "prize-fighters" is interesting. Some of our guys who do wrestling believe that it gives them edge in othismos.
Needs more testing if we are to draw conclusions.

Kind regards

[Old Husker]

It certainly seems logical that strength (and quick reflexes) honed by wrestling training would help a lot in a shoving match. I recall coming accross an ancient comment somewhere (don't remember exactly where) to the tune that skill in wrestling was recongized as a Theban advantage in combat. In general, superior athleticism among the Thebans was apparently regarded by all the other Greeks as giving their phalanx a significant edge on the battlefield.

As for Delium, Thucydides' account indicates that though the much deeper Theban right shoved the Athenians "further and further back," (4.96.4) it not only did not break them but made progress no more than "gradually at first" (4.96.4). It seems clear in the historian's ordering of events that the Athenian right took advantage of this heroric initial resistance to defeat the Theban left wing (4.96.2), rolling it up and at least partially surrounding the Thespian contingent, which was close to the center on that side (triggering a slaughter so fierce that some Athenians even cut down their own men in the chaos). Upon seeing that that the distress on his left wing was about to cost him the battle (his right clearly still not in command of its side of the field), Pagondas sent two squadrons of his horsemen (who had been forced into a reserve role by terrain restrictions on both sides of the battle ground) "round the hill" (4.96.5) to strike the victorious Athenian right wing from behind. (Note that this seems to be the most straight-forward reading of the text and follows the detailed field work of W.K. Pritchert at the battle site [1969: Studies in Ancient Greek Topography, Part II (Battlefields)]. However, V.D. Hanson has suggested that the horsemen came up over the hill rather than around it as Thucydides states and hit the Athenians there who had turned their backs in encircling the men from Thespiae [2005: A War Like No Other: How the Athenians and Spartans Fought the Peloponesian War].) This surprise attack finally ("at length" [4.96.6]) managed to panic the Athenians "in both parts of the field" (4.96.6), and only then was the Athenian left "broken by the advancing Thebans" (4.96.6) and the whole Athenian phalanx put to flight, so disrupted that its three components (right, center, left) all took off in different directions (4.96.7). (Note: all quotes are from the Richard Crawley translation.)

That the almost fatally tardy defeat of the Athenians' left came against what was presumeably the weaker wing of their phalanx is, if anything, a further indication that Pagondas' ploy of stacking three times deeper than his foe was pretty much a failed tactic (though, to be fair, he likely faced good quality troops since the actual custom seems to have been to put an army's 'second best' men on the left wing, saving the weakest troops for the formation center, preferably sandwiched between better men both front and back). In fact, we don't hear of anyone else using this 'deep wing' sort of approach again for over half a century, and then solely in much modified form (at Leuctra, with even deeper files on the left this time and 'refusing' the right wing to avoid a repeat of the near disaster at Delium). And even these changes weren't entirely adequate, as at Mantinea nine years later, it appears that a failure of discipline among Thebes' allies on the right brought them prematurely into action and caused their defeat on that part of the field, resulting in a draw for the battle overall. - Regards, Fred

[PMBardunias]

Cawkwell cited the Wresting skill quote as a reason for espousing opened order. I have a theory that the reference is to foot stomps and hooks, which can be done in the press. My evidence is meagre, but I'll show you what started me thinking this. Pausanias describes a contest of boys at Sparta that surely must have shared elements with the othismos- even if the lack of shield made true crowd pushing impossible. Here's the quote"

[quote]Paus. 3.14
8] And there is a place called Platanistas ?Plane-tree Grove? from the unbroken ring of tall plane trees growing round it. The place itself, where it is customary for the youths to fight, is surrounded by a moat just like an island in the sea; you enter it by bridges. On each of the two bridges stand images; on one side an image of Heracles, on the other a likeness of Lycurgus. Among the laws Lycurgus laid down for the constitution are those regulating the fighting of the youths.
9] There are other acts performed by the youths, which I will now describe. Before the fighting they sacrifice in the Phoebaeum, which is outside the city, not far distant from Therapne. Here each company of youths sacrifices a puppy to Enyalius, holding that the most valiant of tame animals is an acceptable victim to the most valiant of the gods. I know of no other Greeks who are accustomed to sacrifice puppies except the people of Colophon; these too sacrifice a puppy, a black bitch, to the Wayside Goddess. Both the sacrifice of the Colophonians and that of the youths at Sparta are appointed to take place at night.
[10] At the sacrifice the youths set trained boars to fight; the company whose boar happens to win generally gains the victory in Plane-tree Grove. Such are the performances in the Phoebaeum. A little before the middle of the next day they enter by the bridges into the place I have mentioned. They cast lots during the night to decide by which entrance each band is to go in. In fighting they use their hands, kick with their feet, bite, and gouge out the eyes of their opponents. Man to man they fight in the way I have described, but in the melee they charge violently and push one another into the water.[/quote]

My interest is in the word ???????. It is defined as "leaping upon", though in the above it is translated as kicks. Sometimes I have seen it translated as "flying kicks", which makes no sense in context with the other close in fighting they are doing. So based on the notion of "standing upon", I wonder if the term here could apply to a foot-stomp.

Note too how they fight man to man AND push all together as a group. Perhaps moving from one phase to the other. Here the "??????? " cannot be figurative, but a literal push into the moat.

I would love to know if they had ever used shields in this fight and how many ranks they formed.

[hoplite14gr]

No evidence of shield use. EMPHDO means I leap forward/charge not jump/overcome

Here the term also after the ancient times in "Alexiad"
http://www.xanthi.ilsp.gr/thraki/histor ... afm=BK4949

Kick is a very "liberal" translation in my opinion

That means that the forward lads had some "more freedom of movement" but not much and
The boys in the rear of the throng kept the forward "clawing" boys from retreating and attempted to go forward.
It was like a rugby scram but the idea for elders was that if the lads pressed forward without armor no matter what, then phalanx advance would seem like cake walk to them
Kind regrads

[PMBardunias]

Ah, I think I see now. He is describing the boy smashing into or seeking to bear down another boy. I moved this to its own thread: <!-- l <a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=29068">viewtopic.php?f=19&t=29068<!-- l

[Old Husker]

It seems that each polis must have brought a few unique practices to its phalanx fighting, with any number of singular combat practices at Sparta being perhaps best known. One that has interested me for quite a while is Spartan use of a straight sword that was exceptionally short compared to those of other Greeks, something that seems to have made them the butt of any number of ribald jokes among contemporaries. I've long thought that this custom implies a different style of front fighting by the Spartans, who, when reduced to use of the sword by loss of spear (and butt spike), might have used their aspis to slightly hook/jar aside the shield of an opponent for a quick side slash or jab with this stubby device. Frankly, the idea was inspired by descriptions of how Zulu warriors in South Africa used their unusually short weapon, the iklwa (a stunted and heavy assegae or spear), though the analogy is at best only approximate (the iklwa apparently being rather longer than a Spartan sword and always plied underhand, while the Zulu shield was a bit different too - though about the same width as an aspis and likewise fixed on the forearm, the elbow was near the edge with the hand-grip in the center, rather than the reverse for the aspis). Of course, such a practice requires the front-fighter to have some modest freedom of movement (at least on occasion), something much easier to picture in the looser Zulu array than in a close-ordered phalanx. All the same, the shoving match/combat-sport described above, suggests that Spartan youths might have trained in a way that prepared them for applying just such more free-ranging techniques at the head of their files. Does anyone with reenacting experience have any thoughts on the practicality of this idea?

[PMBardunias]

I think the short Laconian sword was designe for use in the crowd. Wouldn't that make sense? You'll notice that it becomes used by other poleis if we can trust the Theban stelae and others. All in all I think othismos was a major key to Sparta's success and accounted for the short sword and opened pilos helm. Short sword because stabbing down into the neck would be devastating, the short length handy, and the pilos because most strikes have to come from above and the added stamina allowed by an opened helm was welcome. One thing not widely appreciated is in a crowd of helmets, you are protected from strikes by the heads of your friends and foes alike.

[Old Husker]

I get it now! An overhand grip and downward, 'dagger-like' strike certainly would have worked well in a very confined space. This also helps explain various references to the Spartan preference for especially close-in fighting. Added to your apt notes on helmet design and utility, this all goes a long way toward reinforcing the idea that the Spartans weren't wild-eyed, fanatical fighting machines (take that, Frank Miller!). Rather, they seem to have been extremely practical men, who picked their contests carefully (refusing battle in poor circumstances) and with calculated resolve took every step reasonable to tilt the odds in their favor when they did choose to engage. Knowing the practical realties of war better than anyone else, the Spartans at their height appear to have earned their great success in major pitched battles by simply being better prepared (in equipment, in organization, in formation skills, and in determined attitude) than their opponents.

[PMBardunias]

When you say "dagger-like" I think like an ice pick, which is not what I envision. But we may mean the same thing. Rather like the image below, with the fingers away on the down thrust and right into the thoracic cavity via the neck/shoulder joint. Nothing but meat to stop you. This would be difficult with a longer sword.

[Old Husker]

No, you were right, Paul, I did have it twisted around. Thanks for the great visual clarification!

[Astiryu1]

This method of stabbing would allow the arm to bend over the aspis or around instead of lowering your guard as well.

[PMBardunias]

an excellent point my fellow Floridian.