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OK this is going to be highly controvercial.
Original
http://www.horse.gr/pgeDynamic.asp?Sele ... egoryID=34
Translation
http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_ur ... =Translate
My question: did the Bagram statuets mentien in there exist? Any image?
What is the possibility that the guy has a point?
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Quote:My question: did the Bagram statuets mentien in there exist? Any image?
Do you think he meant this statuette? It can hardly be adduced as evidence.
![[Image: begram_alexander.JPG]](http://www.livius.org/a/1/afghanistan/begram_alexander.JPG)
Jona Lendering
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Dont know Jona.
This statuete gives evidence of riding boots(?) only.
I post it all this hoping that something will come up
My thanks!
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I'm not a riding expert but wouldn't a boot that is specifically designed for use with a stirrup have a noticable heel?
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I was recently reading an old paper by L. Sprauge de Camp, and excellent fiction writer as well as historian and linguist, "Before Stirrups", wherein he describes loops being attached to saddles far earlier than stirrups to aid in mounting. Evidently this can be seen in Skythian art on the chertomylk vase.
Paul M. Bardunias
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Quote:I was recently reading an old paper by L. Sprauge de Camp, and excellent fiction writer as well as historian and linguist, "Before Stirrups", wherein he describes loops being attached to saddles far earlier than stirrups to aid in mounting. Evidently this can be seen in Skythian art on the chertomylk vase.
I've heard this put forth before, but I've never understood what anyone might think is a stirrup on the Chertomlyk vase depicting of a saddled horse - it's quite clear that a girth strap is depicted and nothing more.
As for the linked article, can anyone point out what is even supposed to be evidence of a stirrup on that coin? All I see is a blown-up photo of a foot that shows nothing in particular. If this coin really does show evidence of a stirrup, then he's going to have to present several different specimens that each show quite clearly some sort of evidence to prove that this isn't just an anomaly on one particular coin. Until then, there's nothing to this and the first stirrups remain the leather examples from Indian art of the last century BC.
Ruben
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Thanks Ruben!
Thats a good point.
If the article author cannot point that there other similar coins or depictions then what he interprets
as stirrup is nothing more than an anomaly on the coin either because of mis-casting or time of exposure.
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To piggy-back Ruben, there are also examples of what seem to be stirrups of some sort on Indian art from the 2c BC and later, from the Bhaja complex. I'm not sure on the dating of the several carvings that show these leather loop "stirrups," but I don't think they're placed in the earliest phase of construction, so 1c BC-AD may be more accurate. Perhaps Ruben could correct me on that.
Paul
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You're absolutely right, Paul - I'd completely forgotten that those stirrups do already appear on the horseman depicted at Bhaja, meaning they date to the late 2nd c. BC, and are thus the earliest in the world.
Ruben
He had with him the selfsame rifle you see with him now, all mounted in german silver and the name that he\'d give it set with silver wire under the checkpiece in latin: Et In Arcadia Ego. Common enough for a man to name his gun. His is the first and only ever I seen with an inscription from the classics. - Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian
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Just a second. The Indian so-called stirrup is a toe-holder, not a stirrup which to place the whole foot in. That means, if the Scythian loops were indeed intended for the whole foot, they can be well credited with the invention of the stirrup as such, since the only difference to the later common version lies in the material (metal vs. rope), but not in the function which can be reasonably expected to remain the same (mounting and holding balance).
Stefan (Literary references to the discussed topics are always appreciated.)
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Quote:Just a second. The Indian so-called stirrup is a toe-holder, not a stirrup which to place the whole foot in. That means, if the Scythian loops were indeed intended for the whole foot, they can be well credited with the invention of the stirrup as such, since the only difference to the later common version lies in the material (metal vs. rope), but not in the function which can be reasonably expected to remain the same (mounting and holding balance).
Firstly, I'd like somebody to produce an image of this supposed Scythian loop, because the one source that I've read is supposed to depict one, the saddled horse from the Chertomlyk vase, in reality simply shows a girth strap. Secondly, even if that were a loop, we don't see anyone using it, and so we could never know if it is a "toe-holder" instead of an actual stirrup. Thirdly, I've never even heard of a "toe-holder" as opposed to a stirrup. Could you explain the difference? By toe-holder are you referring to a one-sided stirrup only used for mounting, but not for stability while riding? All figural representations of the early Indian stirrup I've seen (from Bhaja, Sanchi, and the Gondla vase) show what appear to be stirrups used while riding, so why then are they not stirrups?
Ruben
He had with him the selfsame rifle you see with him now, all mounted in german silver and the name that he\'d give it set with silver wire under the checkpiece in latin: Et In Arcadia Ego. Common enough for a man to name his gun. His is the first and only ever I seen with an inscription from the classics. - Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian
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Quote:Firstly, I'd like somebody to produce an image of this supposed Scythian loop, ....
I second that.
Quote:Thirdly, I've never even heard of a "toe-holder" as opposed to a stirrup. Could you explain the difference?
Admittedly, I have never seen a pic myself, but read it from diverse sources enough to buy that it existed. Go to "Toe stirrup" at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Inventions . It's a bit of an ethnic pride article, but may serve as a starting point.
Stefan (Literary references to the discussed topics are always appreciated.)
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Quote:Admittedly, I have never seen a pic myself, but read it from diverse sources enough to buy that it existed. Go to "Toe stirrup" at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Inventions . It's a bit of an ethnic pride article, but may serve as a starting point.
None of the early sources I know show stirrups only being used with the big toe, so I'm going to chalk this one up to being Wikipedia nonsense. Regardless of what Wikipedia insists on calling it, the last line of that entry has it right: "However the form, the conception of the primitive Indian stirrup spread west and east, gradually evolving into the stirrup of today." Just call it a primitive stirrup or a proto-stirrup or whatever you like, but the principle is still the same: the earliest evidence for the widespread use of a basic stirrup comes from 2nd c. BC India.
Ruben
He had with him the selfsame rifle you see with him now, all mounted in german silver and the name that he\'d give it set with silver wire under the checkpiece in latin: Et In Arcadia Ego. Common enough for a man to name his gun. His is the first and only ever I seen with an inscription from the classics. - Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian
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