difference between dacian and thracian swords

[marcos]

Hello,
I'm taking a shot at understand the difference between dacian and thracian swords, above all the curved one. I saw several images of them but they look very close one to the other.
For example, is this dacian or thracian?



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[diegis]

Well, Dacians (Getae) are considered the northern branch of Thracians, so they share some similarities. The shorter curved swords, called "Sica" are pretty much similar to both norhtern and southern Thracians. I believe the one you show is a Dacian one, having some signs on blade, with probably religious or other kind of significance, as found in many blades finded in Dacian teritories.

The diference occur when its about longer swords, southern Thracians "romphaia" and Dacian "falx", who was close as dimensions, but "falx" having a much bigger and pronounced curvature, "romphaia" being almost straight or quite straight.

This you can see a "falx"



compared with a "romphaia"



And here are couple interesting articles, regarding both "sica" and "falx", they are in romanian but have english texts too at the end of articles, and images with several "falx" and "sica" discovered, as well their dimensions

http://www.enciclopedia-dacica.ro/nemvs ... 2009/4.pdf

http://cclbsebes.ro/docs/sebus/08_Borangic.pdf

[marcos]

thank you Diegis, very interesting articles. So, if I'm understanding right, sica is quite the some from Dacia to Thracia (crossing the Moesia?) and is impossible to know where it come from, isn't it?

[diegis]

thank you Diegis, very interesting articles. So, if I'm understanding right, sica is quite the some from Dacia to Thracia (crossing the Moesia?) and is impossible to know where it come from, isn't it?

Yes, sica was a big curved dagger/knife (some put here short swords too) who was specific to all thracians, both in Dacia, Moesia (who was inhabited by moesi tribe, a thraco-dacian one, and Getae, same stock with Dacians) and to south, in southern Thracia. So is hard to know where apeared first or who use it first. The author of the article believe is a weapon with roots in neolithic even.

[Zenobia of Palmyra]

My brother has an Osprey book that talks about Dacians. It shows a Dacian warrior equipped with a straight sword that looks a lot like a gladius. So did they use swords based on Roman styles too?

[Paullus Scipio]

There are considerable differences between the Dacian or Thracian 'sica' - single-handed curved swords - and the 'falx', the 'double handed' curved sword.

Although it has been claimed that a falx or falxes have been found in Dacian forts, in the ancient iconography, no Dacian proper is shown wielding the falx, only those identifiable as 'Bastarnae', originally a Celtic people but by the 1 C AD undoubtedly a mixed people.

The 'rhomphaia' too is different, being straight-bladed, of very different dimensions, and known only to have been used by Thracians......

[diegis]

My brother has an Osprey book that talks about Dacians. It shows a Dacian warrior equipped with a straight sword that looks a lot like a gladius. So did they use swords based on Roman styles too?

Well, short double edged straight swords was used since bronze age in the area. In fact was a very spread type later too, from persians to iberians, close in dimensions with gladius, with slighty diferences of blade. But dacians used too even Gladius, especialy after first wars with romans, and after roman instructors or desertors come to Dacia and was used for training Dacian Army.

However, their representative swords was the curved ones, sica (more like a huge knife) and falx (a big curved sword, but a bit smaller ones existed too, one handed ones, sometimes refered as "sica" as well, or "one handed falx)

[diegis]

There are considerable differences between the Dacian or Thracian 'sica' - single-handed curved swords - and the 'falx', the 'double handed' curved sword.

Although it has been claimed that a falx or falxes have been found in Dacian forts, in the ancient iconography, no Dacian proper is shown wielding the falx, only those identifiable as 'Bastarnae', originally a Celtic people but by the 1 C AD undoubtedly a mixed people.

The 'rhomphaia' too is different, being straight-bladed, of very different dimensions, and known only to have been used by Thracians......

Yes, there are considerable diferences in size, agree

I know your opinions about falx and bastarnae, but come on.
"It has been claimed"? :lol: It was find there (and not just one, but several, see the article posted previously :roll: ), what you think that someone sneak somewhere in Ukraine or Republic of Moldova (where Bastranae lived once), find those falxes, then come with them and hide them around Sarmisegetuza (in the middle of Romania, where Dacia capital was), to be digged up later during the time?

I post some articles of a historian who dealt with the subject, and Romans themselves back then call those swords "falx dacica" (its never apear anywhere any mentions as being related with Bastarnae). What is need more? If was called like that, and if was find in the middle of Dacia, i think is good enough. And on Tropaeum Traiani there are at least the same number of dacians depicted with a falx, if not more then bastrnae (a germanic tribe with celtic influences). Not to mention the images from Traian Column (where are no bastrnae depicted) where falx apear among dacian armoures and weapons captured (at the base of the column) and dacians equiped with shields apear using shorter curved swords similar in shape with larger ones (falx), so is very probably that falx was just an evolution from shorter one handed curved swords and at some point during that battle in Moesia with Romans some swords was gived to bastarnae (who fight as auxiliares for dacians)

[Paullus Scipio]

We have had this debate before, so I don't propose to repeat it here.....

And on Tropaeum Traiani there are at least the same number of dacians depicted with a falx, if not more then bastrnae (a germanic tribe with celtic influences).

Just for the record, there are three types of ethnic group depicted on the 'Adamklissi Tropaeum Traiani' - Dacians, Sarmatians and Bastarnae, all wearing distinctive types of clothing. Only Bastarnae are shown wielding the double-handed weapon called 'falx'.

Not to mention the images from Traian Column (where are no bastrnae depicted) where falx apear among dacian armoures and weapons captured (at the base of the column) and dacians equiped with shields apear using shorter curved swords similar in shape with larger ones (falx), so is very probably that falx was just an evolution from shorter one handed curved swords and at some point during that battle in Moesia with Romans some swords was gived to bastarnae (who fight as auxiliares for dacians)

The 'wagon fight', depicted on the Tropaeum with (almost certainly) Bastarnae wielding two-handed falx is also shown on the Column - so Bastarnae are probably depicted on the Column also ( along with other allies such as Sarmatians). The archaeological remains show that the 'single-handed' curved sword often called 'sica' is probably not related to the two-handed 'falx' - their shapes are quite different as is evident by looking at the photos above. As for "swords ( falx) given to Bastarnae", there is no evidence for this....you might as well claim that scale armour was "given to the Sarmatians". The weapons depicted on the base of the Column are in fact a 'Tropaeum' made up of a jumble of Dacian, Sarmatian, and Bastarnae weapons.

[diegis]

We have had this debate before, so I don't propose to repeat it here.....

And on Tropaeum Traiani there are at least the same number of dacians depicted with a falx, if not more then bastrnae (a germanic tribe with celtic influences).

Just for the record, there are three types of ethnic group depicted on the 'Adamklissi Tropaeum Traiani' - Dacians, Sarmatians and Bastarnae, all wearing distinctive types of clothing. Only Bastarnae are shown wielding the double-handed weapon called 'falx'.


The 'wagon fight', depicted on the Tropaeum with (almost certainly) Bastarnae wielding two-handed falx is also shown on the Column - so Bastarnae are probably depicted on the Column also ( along with other allies such as Sarmatians). The archaeological remains show that the 'single-handed' curved sword often called 'sica' is probably not related to the two-handed 'falx' - their shapes are quite different as is evident by looking at the photos above. As for "swords ( falx) given to Bastarnae", there is no evidence for this....you might as well claim that scale armour was "given to the Sarmatians". The weapons depicted on the base of the Column are in fact a 'Tropaeum' made up of a jumble of Dacian, Sarmatian, and Bastarnae weapons.

Yes, we had, and you didnt convinced me. I want to see images (there are pics with monument on the net or if you have others) where you can show me who's who there. Its more like a very debatable interpretation of some peoples, not something spread in mainstream history.

But until then lets look at what was discovered until now.
First, both Cornelius Fronto who use the name "Dacorum Falcibus" for dacian swords in his Principia Historiae and Publius Papinius Statius in hiw work called "Achilleis" where he said the "Falx" is representative weapon of the Getae, relate this kind of sword just with Dacians. There is no mention anywhere in ancient world who relate the sword with Bastarnae

As well, archeological findings of Falx are just in the middle of the Dacia (today Transylvania/Romania), in the interior of Carpathian Mountains arch, with an exception of one find in south of Danube (close to the river) in Moesia (teritory inhabited as well by Dacians (Getae more exactly). It was never find any curved swords (Falx or Sica) in any sites related with Bastarnae (which btw are mostly in today Ukraine or even Rep. of Moldova).

Falx was in my opinion just a development of a family of curved knives and short curved swords, and even the shape of some Sica (or even shorter knives) resemble in generaly the much bigger Falx. Falx apeared more likely after the first encounters with Romans (middle of I century BC) and their fighting style and equipment (big shields and armour) and was developed from an already know (similar or close) desing to by-pass that shield and armour .

This are some images of curved knives, Sica (who contrary to some believes doesnt have an exact standard of all exmplaires) and Falxes

First, some short battle knives of Dacians (there is a shield too)



Then Sica (from the teritories of today Romania, Bulgaria and even Serbia, former inhabited by Dacians, Getae (Dacians was a branch of Getae) or Moesii, (a Thraco-Dacian tribe)

http://www.enciclopedia-dacica.ro/armat ... a_pl_9.jpg

http://www.enciclopedia-dacica.ro/armat ... a_pl_2.jpg

http://www.enciclopedia-dacica.ro/armat ... a_pl_8.jpg

http://www.enciclopedia-dacica.ro/armat ... _pl_10.jpg

http://www.enciclopedia-dacica.ro/armat ... _pl_13.jpg

http://www.enciclopedia-dacica.ro/armat ... a_pl_9.jpg

This are from Traian Column



This are signs and incisions make on many Sica blades



And this are the images of Falx blades finded until now (again, just in inner Carpathian Dacia and in or close to capital Sarmisegetuza). On one of the swords (second from top in the left) is an incision sign as ones find on some Sica's

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/9814/sabiifalx.jpg



On that roman coin a female representing Dacia can be observed as well handling a two handed Falx


And this is the article of that historian about Falxes, with dimensions and descriptions (it have a smaller part in english too)

http://www.scribd.com/doc/33876270/Bora ... bus-I-2009