Experimental Pleated Subarmalis Construction

[Marcus Mummius]

Hi Kelsey,

How does the subarmalis hold up until now? I also sent you a PM.

Best regards,

[L_CORNELIUS_CETHEGUS]

Well I haven't really put it through much testing because my main goal with the project was to see if the pattern and construction method would yield what we see in the statuary evidence. Unfortunately I've kind of shelved it (just for now :oops: ) because my work has taken over a lot of the free time I used to have (which actually is a good thing, having a family to support & all )

I've gotten a number of questions about whether I would consider producing these for others. While I'm not really too interested in going down that road, I'd be more than happy to share my experience with anybody that wants to take it further (hint... study how scottish kilts are made). I'd love to see the concept experimented with and tried out by others who know WAY more than me about all things Roman!

--Kelsey

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Well I haven't really put it through much testing because my main goal with the project was to see if the pattern and construction method would yield what we see in the statuary evidence. Unfortunately I've kind of shelved it (just for now :oops: ) because my work has taken over a lot of the free time I used to have (which actually is a good thing, having a family to support & all )

I've gotten a number of questions about whether I would consider producing these for others. While I'm not really too interested in going down that road, I'd be more than happy to share my experience with anybody that wants to take it further (hint... study how scottish kilts are made). I'd love to see the concept experimented with and tried out by others who know WAY more than me about all things Roman!

--Kelsey

I have often thought the kilt may have been a hangover from the days of Roman and Greek contact. (ducks under scutum and scurries out of range of thrown objects from Scottish friends)
i would love to try this pattern out in the flesh to see how it works, with your permission?

[Matthew Amt]

I have often thought the kilt may have been a hangover from the days of Roman and Greek contact.

It's not. It was originally just a big rectangular *cloak* like most of the planet was wearing. At some point it became checkered/plaid/tartan (not with modern "sets", though!), and then it got belted around the waist. In the 18th century an Englishman cut the top part off and was left with the lower part to make what we know of as the kilt today.

No relation to anything Roman except that it was cloth wrapped around the body.

Matthew McAmt

[Crispvs]

Byron, the kilt as we know it today is the result of an early nineteenth century misunderstanding of what was shown in 'romantic' portraits of Scottish people painted sixty of more years before. The original 'kilt' (a word which may originally have simply meant 'covering') was what is today referred to as the 'belted plaid'. This was a long length of woollen fabric which could be worn over a typical highland shirt in a variety of ways but it seems to have been common to gather it into loose 'pleats' at the back of the wearer's waist, before passing it around the body and belting it to hold it in place. The gathering at the back provided insulation and cushioning when sitting down on cold or damp surfaces. The remaining material could be worn around the body or shoulders in a variety of ways. This was not worn after 1746 due to traditional highland dress being banned following Bonny Prince Charlie's campaign and defeat at Culludon. A few years later Scottish army regiments were again permitted to wear something akin to highland dress but this was often in the form of tartan trews rather than kilts, although as the government gradually relaxed its attitude to Scotland, kilts were gradually reintroduced for some Scottish regiments, although these do not seem to have resembled the belted plaid any more than superficially and were probably mainly informed by the same sort of pictures which influenced the civilian codifiers of clan culture and accoutrement in the late eighteenth and early nineteenth century.

In the early nineteenth century, groups such as the London Scottish Society (composed of the descendants of Scots who had migrated south in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries) tried to recreate the image of how they believed their 'romantic' forebears had dressed. They informed themselves from old paintings and interpreted what they saw as something more like the modern kilt and plaid than what the original garments had actually looked like. They were also under the impression that each clan had its own distinctive tartan and so wrote to all of the clan chieftains to request a sample of their clan tartan, authenticated with a seal and signature from each. This request was complied with by many chieftains, but as there were actually no such things as 'clan tartans' in reality at that stage, most chieftains presumably simply sent a piece of tartan they liked the look of. This allowed the London Scottish Society et al to compile a great list of clans and connected tartans, which has since become the basis for virtually all modern clan tartans. As many of the clans themselves had suffered badly from the lasting effects of the '45 and/or the Clearances, the appearance of nominal clan tartans and badges was a welcome encouragement and many clans took these on with great enthusiasm. Enterprising companies also appeared on the scene to create new tartans for clans (and in some cases septs as well) which either did not have a 'clan tartan' (according to the LSS's list) or which disliked the ones they had ended up with. Since that time, as stated above, these have become the standard tartans and most people mistakenly believe that they are of great antiquity. Accordingly, many people of Scottish nationality or descent today will refuse to wear a tartan which is not the one prescribed for their ancestral clan or which is not one from a prescribed list of clan associations if (like me) they are descended from a sept rather than a clan.

Sorry to pull this OT

Crispvs

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

No probs Crispus.. i know most of this. I'm part Scots myself....but informative post as always.
There are some good books which document the development of the Tartans, from pre clearance times and the
enforced permissable ones in the later period. the ancient tartans are totally different from the bright modern ones.
Buchannan is one which is quite bright, but looking back at the ancient ones, you would not think they were supposed to be from the same Clan.
Anyway, probably came with the bagpipes at the same time :wink:

[Titvs Statilivs Castvs]

Salve Kelsey,

Seeing this topic coming up again, I also got you a question. Do you have a detail photograph of the shoulderpteryges? They really fall down quite neat, as it should look IMO. I made myself a subarmalis as well (not pleated, see link in signature) but still only have a few pteryges made. From other reconstructions I've seen the shoulders are a tricky part and I would like to know how the pteryges are attached to your subarmalis itself and to eachother.
Thanks in advance!

Vale,

[Luca]

This argument was already much discussed 3 years ago on RAT about pteruges: http://www.ancient-warfare.org/index.php...&Itemid=40

I found also many other "subarmalis" topics such as:
http://www.ancient-warfare.org/index.php...&Itemid=40

I used the results of the discussion to build my own subarmalis with pteruges and I took a couple of years to complete the construction in a way that sactisfies me.

You can read the 5 web pages with a lot of pics here:

http://www.romanhideout.com/legiov/fabri...ges_en.asp

[Titvs Statilivs Castvs]

Hi Luca,

Thank you very much. Hadn't seen that topic before - a lot of useful information in it.

Concerning the shoulderpteryges, I remember having seen another configuration as well. In that construction, the pteryges were all parallel, but sewn to each other at the base - this looked very very good. I was wondering if someone here did it that way?

[Titvs Statilivs Castvs]

Hi Luca,

Thank you very much. Hadn't seen that topic before - a lot of useful information in it.

Concerning the shoulderpteryges, I remember having seen another configuration as well. In that construction, the pteryges were all parallel, but sewn to each other at the base - this looked very very good. I was wondering if someone here did it that way?

In addition to this (I'd still like to know), I've always been intrigued by images like this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:AdamclisiMetope37.jpg

If you look at the shoulder of this soldier, you see the pteryges seem to continue under his arm as well. They also don't hang down, but "stick to eachother", as one thick sleeve. I know that may be just the representation by the artist, but the fact that they continue under the armpit is very interesting. It's like a sleeve of pteryges.
Has this been discussed before? Any comments on this?

[Luca]

No this particular detail was not discussed.
I can add that they seem to be the kind of representation of the sculptures in late period (the beginning of the medieval art concept) when the realism is less important than significant such us the famous four tetrarch in Venice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portrait_of..._Tetrarchs).

So this could be either a real kind of pteryges or not.

Just imagining how the pteryges could became uncomfortable under the armpit I could think that it is an artistic invention. Just my opinion.

[Robert Vermaat]

Perhaps we could revive this thread. Did anybody try to emulate this one?

[Magnus]

I just found this now...seems pretty plausible. Is the OP still an active member on RAT?

I'd like to know if the machine stitched seams are hidden on the pterygyes. I can't imagine sewing that many pleat lines by hand.

[Marcus Mummius]

I would love to try one like this. My third subarmalis will be of this pattern I think. But I will have to find the time to do it...

[Vindex]

It looks deceptively simple on paper :wink: Bet it isn;t but impressive results nonetheless.