Protest against abolishing Latin on Leiden Univ Diplomas!

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

The Board of the University of Leiden has made known that they want to abolish the Latin language on the Ba and Ma diplomas.

It would be more suitable to use English according to the board, thus destroying a 435 year old tradition...

The "Hora Est" will be changed into : Time is up............................. hock:

This has led to a petition and a demonstration against this descision by students, scholars, teachers and professors of the University.

The Demonstration against this descision took place last week.



Some 56 students, as well as scholars and the former Rector Magnificus of Leiden University, professor Leertouwer participated in this demo.



At the moment the petition is at 2.807 signatures, but more are needed, especially by scholars who could put their weight in the balance....



this is the link :

http://petities.nl/petitie/behoud-latij ... leidse-bul

Feel free to sign it, especially if you are a scholar.

You can use translation functions in windows or firefox to get a clue of the Dutch text.

next week the petition is due to be presented to the board of the University, around the 17th of June.

M.VIB.M.

[Jona Lendering]

I strongly disagree with this type of antiquarianism, and feel deeply ashamed that the rector magnificus of "my" university has participated in this nonsense.

In the first place, we live in a modern age; English is the world's language, not Latin; Latin serves no purpose. If you want other people to understand that you're a scholar, come with interesting investigations and results - not with snobbery. I recall that when I graduated, I have explicitly asked for a Dutch/English diploma; it was not possible, back then, and I was forced to have the Latin text.

In the second place, tradition is never an argument. Over the past forty-seven centuries, women were surpressed. Few of us will continue that tradition.

In the third place, scholars and scientists really have more important things to do. Like cleaning Augeas' stables and restore trust.

In the fourth place, at least prevent spelling errors:


I remember scientists being involved in ClimateGate, I remember classicists being known for spreading outdated knowledge, I remember physicians incorrectlt warning against a kind of influenza last autumn, I remember archaeologists notorious for exaggerated press releases. Scholarship and science are now rapidly losing much credit; silly shows like these will really help to get back a reputation of reliability.

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

Dear Jona, partly you are right about English being the worlds premier language of course, however...

If Latin serves no purpose, why then is it a subject taught on various universities ? Why do scholars still read the antique authors in their own outdated language ?

Why not merely use translations of the classics ?

Why not immediately translate all Latin titles given to members of this board ?

Why not change the re-enactment drills of the Roman groups into English also ?

Is not being annoyed by a spelling error in Cicero' s O tempora O mores in itself useless if Latin serves no purpose ?

To rule out traditions is to destroy ones heritage. If the trooping of the colour was abolished, if regiments in armies did not adhere to their traditions anymore, if scholars did not adhere anymore to scientific conventions (read traditions) where would we end up ?

Feeling ashamed is not really nessecary in this case, the fact of the matter is that the English version of the diploma could be printed on the back side, on a separate paper, while the original diploma which is handed out including a red seal, is something to put on your wall and certainly not snobistic.

You speak of silly shows. Is every demonstration silly in your eyes? Should not re-enactment be considered silly also ?

Is then not all historical research itself outdated, useless and just money squandering nonsense, compared to the breakthrough science like space exploration, astronomy, physics, medicine and mathematics which does serve a purpose ?

Is not writing about classical society like you do for magazines as a journalist and scholar totally useless too since classical society is not even remotely comparable to present day and therefore outdated ?

To have people dressed up making a statement is not silly at all, especially not when they are students.
If everyone of us would have worn a suit, would we have presented a more serious tone to our plea ? talking about traditions....

Just my two Sestertii...

M.VIB.M.

[Jona Lendering]

If Latin serves no purpose, why then is it a subject taught on various universities ? Why do scholars still read the antique authors in their own outdated language ?

Because people are interested in ancient society. There are also people interested in modern Germany. That does not mean that their diplomas ought to be written in German?

Why not merely use translations of the classics ?

Because you don't want to make errors when you're studying ancient society. But that does not mean that you need Latin to write diplomas. You also need to be good in maths, but that does not mean that your diploma must look like a mathematical formula.

Why not immediately translate all Latin titles given to members of this board ?

I would not object to that.

Why not change the re-enactment drills of the Roman groups into English also ?

Because re-enactment has nothing to do with diplomas.

Is not being annoyed by a spelling error in Cicero' s O tempora O mores in itself useless if Latin serves no purpose ?

If it proves that those people are insincere, it is quite useful. They are not interested in Latin - they are interested in a snobbish tradition.

To rule out traditions is to destroy ones heritage.

No. Traditions are reinvented every day. It is only people without sense of history who think of them as absolute.

the fact of the matter is that the English version of the diploma could be printed on the back side,

That already is the case. When I graduated, I had the choice between Latin/Dutch and Latin/English. It was impossible to have a more practical Dutch/English.

You speak of silly shows. Is every demonstration silly in your eyes? Should not re-enactment be considered silly also ?

If people have a very serious problem with their reputation, like universities do (ClimateGate, exaggerating archaeologists...), it is in their own interest to act seriously. This problem does not exist for reenactors.

Is then not all historical research itself outdated, useless and just money squandering nonsense, compared to breakthrough science like space exploration, astronomy, physics, medicine and mathematics which does serve a purpose ?

Yes. We should use the money to create decent libraries, and stop funding the history departments. The current system is essentially a subsidy to the middle classes. It has not created good history books. The current system is a cul-de-sac.

Is not writing about classical society like you do for magazines as a journalist and scholar totally useless too since classical society is not even remotely comparable to present day and therefore outdated ?

As long as people are willing to pay for my writings, I see no problem. I am unsubsidized, I am not using a penny community money. I can also write fiction. People have no problem paying for novels.

To have people dressed up making a statement is not silly at all, especially not when they are students.

Students ought to focus on the really important issues. They are clever enough to realize that the universities are not good enough. If they would be demonstrating against the closing of the libraries, I could sympathize with them.

If everyone of us would have worn a suit, would we have presented a more serious image with our plea ?

It would have been just as unnecessary. We live only once. Let's focus on the really important things. If, by demonstrating, we could restore the universities to their former glory, I'd gladly dress in any costume, or go naked, eat my diploma, yes even accept a diploma written in Latin.

But writing petitions for something as trivial as the use of Latin, while the university as a whole is collapsing, makes no sense to me. It's like complaining about the ice cubes in you whisky while the Titanic is sinking.

PS:
For one reason or another, we always seem to be on opposing sides in a debate. I like to stress that AFAIC, there's nothing personal in this.

[Gaius Decius Aquilius]

Ummm... All legal terms in the US are in latin. Where would we be if everyday people could understand the laws? look at all the unemployed lawyers we would have! No more 1200 page bills that were written by high priced lawyers and can only be translated by the high priced lawyers. This will not be allowed to happen!

Besides, why is English the language of the world? Everything here is also in Spanish. This includes the public school curriculum. No one would want to offend someone who might be offended if things were only in English.

However, in the spirit in making things more relevant I have a proposal for a more fashionable diploma format.




. ............................ HEY DUDE!...............................

......................Like Man You Just Gotta Know.................
.
..............That ____________________________ is............
. ................................ DOWN.................................
. ...... With the Cirrikulium and is COOL enough to to score......
. ....................................A....................................
......................... Hi School Diploma...............................
. .................................................. as, now checkit out--
.
..................._______________________ The Dude or Dudess
.
. ..................................................in charge of da skools
...................................................(an a Indie Music FOOL)

Like, Whatever Year This Is



Just a thought...
Sorry. The system here wont let me use spaces, so I have to use periods...
and this makes the format hard to read..


Ralph

[Jona Lendering]

. ............................ HEY DUDE!....................

.......................Like Man You Just Gotta Know.................
.
................That ____________________________ is..............
. ................................ DOWN.........................
. .......... With the Cirrikulium and is COOL enough to to score......

Which reminds me of that rewriting the U.S. Declaration of Independence in Californian, "We the people" becoming "Us guys..."

[Gaius Decius Aquilius]

"Us guys " may be considered sexist.... It should be "Us persons"...

...not to be picky... but...

Ralph

[Paullus Scipio]

Jona wrote:

Yes. We should use the money to create decent libraries, and stop funding the history departments. The current system is essentially a subsidy to the middle classes. It has not created good history books. The current system is a cul-de-sac.

Y'know, you almost had me going there ......until I saw this! :lol: :lol: Then I knew that, in the words of the tennis player John McEnroe: "Man, you canNOT be serious! " :wink: :wink:

You feel History/archaeology is being taught badly/corrupted?....and your solution is to close the history departments? :lol: :lol: :lol:
......How about reforming them instead? After all ;"..those who are ignorant of their history are condemned to repeat it ! "

It probably does not matter much in the scheme of things whether Leiden's diplomas retain their latin or not, but 'Traditons' ( real or imagined) do have a purpose in Society.

Also, it strikes me as odd that a man who was denied his chosen wording on his diploma should now wish to deny choice of wording to others who happen to like/want Latin !

Very funny, Jona! :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Jona Lendering]

You feel History/archaeology is being taught badly/corrupted?

Yes. People have become too specialized; that would not be wrong, but they also speak about subjects outside their direct sphere of specialism. Imagine someone specialized in the Third Century Crisis talking about the Peloponnesian War. The universities are now a major source of desinformation; I can back that up with statistics. (Of the 50 errors I dealt with in my book on common errors, 37 were made by people with a Ph.D.; my complete database now consists of 3400 items.) More about it here. And yes, I am very, very serious. Supporting the universities no longer makes sense.

How about reforming them instead?

Reform has become possible. The universities are more occupied with diplomas in Latin than with the real problems.

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

I get your drift Jona, and also know that there is nothing personal in our debates when we are on opposing sides.

Sometimes i am happy that i just need to teach world-history to young secondary schoolkids after having earned my Ba, that i just need to instill in them the curiosity in times long gone, some of the knowledge about those times, to make them critical and attentive about their surroundings, their culture, their thoughts, politics in general et cetera.

To make them see history CAN be fun, mesmerising, interesting. That history can help them relate better to the actions and happenings of these times. That large scale social problems have their own history and momentum.

I adhere to your statement of over specialising on a subject, to the closure of libraries due to mismanagement and to the downfall in quality of scholarship and education worldwide. The downfall of Universities is a worldwide phenomenon, but the Latin on diplomas is just the thing the Universities are NOT interested in at all. Universities these days do not support or feed the middle class as you put it, thats the HBO system here in the Netherlands.

The problem with education in the Netherlands is that during the late 80s and well into the 90s secondary as well as higher education has been systematically destroyed by managers, economists, as well as multiple governments which seem to want non-critical citizens only thinking about their own purse and wellbeing.

Educational reforms have downgraded all educational forms in the Netherlands. In the secondary schools the learning of skills has become more important than the gaining of knowledge, the teacher needs to be more of a class manager than a true teacher, the spirit is one of: let them sort everything out for themselves and only give support when they ask for it....... has anyone ever seen someone in puberty asking any advice from any adult ?

Same at Universities, where during the 80s all teachers *by that i mean the teachers who knew how to teach !! were sacked, and now we are left with scholars who can not even explain their own speciality, simply because they lack a lot of social skills you need when teaching people who just have left secondary school.
Lectures are increasingly vague, uninteresting and uncoördinated. That notwithstanding the few profs who do know how to teach and are still doing that with great results....

So we are not that far apart i think, and well, wheter or not the University of Leiden will keep on handing out diplomas in Latin as well as other languages, I for one was happy to make a statement in Roman military kit, because If i had my way.......................................................... :twisted:

M.VIB.M.

[Paullus Scipio]

Ah, we digress considerably from Henk's thread.....perhaps we ought carry on a discussion about the current state of universities elsewhere ? I have read much of your writings, including your link, and by and large agree with much of what you say. In my country, universities used to be seats of learning, funded by government for the benefit of its citizens. Now, universities (and other educational establishments) have become 'privatised' and must be largely self-funding and work "in a market environment". Result, a significant proportion of students are foreign, with poor English skills. The "Education Industry" is money-driven, not education- driven ( consider how sport stopped being sport when 'big money' took over), university education has become extremely expensive - most students must take out a loan like a mortgage to pay for it, and so start their working lives under a huge debt burden, education standards have slipped - e.g. degrees can be earned in 2-3 years now, instead of the 4-5 formerly ( I would suggest a degree is about equivalent to an old high school matriculation certificate, and a PhD is now equivalent to one of the older degrees) with much less actual time at Uni, and study time ( because of students need to have jobs as well to support themselves - so-called 'full-time' students are in reality part-time)....etc etc

One thing I do disagree with you about is the idea of leaving everything to the 'professionals'....original thought seldom, if ever, comes from their ranks - they have far to much invested in the 'status quo'. Original thought is far more likely to come from 'gifted amateurs' and their passion and enthusiasm. Yes, there is need of trained professionals, but a greater need for the 'amateur genius', so one shouldn't close them out.....

I have been to a talk recently ( thanks to remote reception! ) given by the noted Canadian thinker and writer John Ralston Saul ( whose writings I recommend to you - though I suspect you are familiar with them) on the subject of the failure of "Globalisation"...which rather dwarfs the "tulip bubble" in Holland, or the "South Seas bubble" in England - if only we'd learnt from that History ! He is very good at pointing out how modern ideas/emperors have no clothes, and how ridiculous many of the concepts which drive our modern society - and one of his points is that when things go wrong, the president turns to the Economics minister, who turns to the Bureacrats, who turn to the Economics professors who haven't had an original thought ever - or if they have, not since one idea got them 'tenure' - who rely on long obsolete theories by Keynes or Friedman ( who recanted much of what he put out before he died! ), all highly inappropriate today ! Hence current disasters.....anyway, the point here is that, universities are now institutions where education and learning are no longer the priority - and the top subject is "management", not thinking !!

Modern Universities are the product and reflection of the societies they are part of, and it was ever thus ( as Historians can tell you - see History does have a use! Consider the days when universities offered courses in alchemy and astrology, or were merely places for the study of religious dogma)...perhaps it is Society and its values as a whole that need reforming ? Or perhaps reforming universities can be the first step in reforming Society?

As you say, they should not be supported in their current form.....reform has become a necessity ! hock:

Nevertheless, none of this has to do with Henk's thread - which is about the place of tradition - surely an important thing at a place such as Leiden with its long history/reputation as one of the World's great universities? And isn't the answer to allow freedom of choice so that those like yourself who don't want Latin can chose to do so, while those who do, and want to allow a nod to 'educational history/tradition can also have their wish?

P.s. I see that while writing this, Henk has posted in similar vein ! Is it a case of 'Great minds think alike'? Or that 'Fools seldom differ'? :wink:

[Doc]

I know that times must change to keep up with current society which degenerates daily. However, history makes us and our countries who we are and it is history that in the end dictates what happens today. Any thought that history is not directly related to the current status of things is living in another world.

The diploma written in latin is not a bad thing. The idea that breaking with tradition just because people re-invent it daily is really poor logic since many people keep to tradition as an identifying marker of who they are. As a matter of fact is it not pretentious to have it written in English so that EVERYONE can read your achievements? My chemistry PhD diploma is in latin and I do not have it hung in my office to show it off (even in English I would not show it off). I know that I have it and I know what I had to do to get it so who cares if anyone else can read it or not. If I have to make it a point to display it then it is I who is insecure and must show off. If you want to show off, then show your profound knowledge not a piece of paper.

I just think that saying that people re-invent traditions everyday is rather unfounded. What sort of people do you deal with, Jona? As an Italian I believe in my traditions and will pass them along to my children. If I thought of it like you, then what exactly would make me Italian? My birth certificate? Another piece of paper that says nothing about me unless I live, behave, and comport myself as an Italian.

Here in the States the university system has totally become about money. At my college, students will take a course over not once but two and three times because they want to become doctors that make lots of money. The entire system is a re-suffling of money. Very few student care about education. For them classes are a means to an end and the universities are preying on this by making students load up on courses they cannot possibly pass together and then let them repeat the ones they failed by having them pay for it again. Some colleges charge over $800/credit. Thus Organic Chemistry which is 5 credits costs $4,000 not including registration fees and books. If you then add all the other courses, and you are attending a premier private university like New York University, then tution for and undergraduate student looking to get a bachelors degree is over $30,000/year. Private medical schools? The tuition is out of control ranging over $250,000 to become a medical doctor.

[Epictetus]

Personally, I think it would be more outrageous to abolish teaching Latin than to abolish Latin from diplomas. I suppose a diploma is a symbol of the time, money, blood, sweat and tears that were poured into an education. Latin displays a tradition and deep history of European learning; English may be a symbol of modern international marketability. I don't see a problem with either. Maybe in a generation or two Chinese will be an option.

[Robert Vermaat]

we live in a modern age; English is the world's language, not Latin; Latin serves no purpose.

English is not the world's language, it's the world's second language.
In aviation, English is the first language, but in biology, Latin can't be dropped like an old snobbish tradition. :wink:

[Doc]

It is true that English is the language of business and marketing but is also the general language that is used in global interaction. Thus I would have to agree with Jona here. In its essence Latin is not a necessary language. It is an intersting classical language that spawned many terms in most European languages including English. I also agree with the fact that Latin does preserve that rich Eurpean educational heritage which afterall, we are all still a product of it.

With English, yes it is the "modern" language not classical. However in Italy at least (from what I have seen and will not generalize Europe since I do not know), English is not only for business but also it is a language in vogue. People think its cool to speak English so that they can come to America and visit. At least for many of my friends/family in Italy and Slovakia, America still holds a place of awe in their mind irrespective of any current event that would otherwise put that view in suspect. Thus they want to speak English to get with the times because its still the "thing to do".

Robert, scientifically in biology, medicine and to a certain degree chemistry, latin is still very important. However, its importance stands in the classroom. Most publications are written in English and in the native language of the author.

Chemistry traditionally has German as the choice language of publications. However, even these are now being translated or authors are outright publishing in English.