Helen of Sparta,Troy and Egypt?!

[Astiryu1]

I have been reading "The Histories" by Herodotus and have come across the subject of Helen. In book 2 paragraph 113 Herodotus states that Helen never made it to Troy but remained in Egypt due to an Egyptian King named Proteus holding her and the riches stolen there; and sending Paris home. Eventually after Troy falls Menelaus shows up to reclaim Helen. This is very interesting to me because in "The Aeneid" by Virgil lines 559-611 Aeneas himself claims Helen was before him the day of Troy falling. There are two conflicting theories here (not counting the "Iliad" itself by Homer) that need to be examined. She shows up in the Odyssey as Menelaus' wife once more during the travels of Telemachus (Odysseus' Son).

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Yes it is an interesting contradiction. I have not read the translations of the Odessey and Iliad though, the
other story about her is new to me.

[Jona Lendering]

There's not so much contradiction, in my view. Herodotus repeats the theory of Stesichorus, who never pretended he spoke the truth. It is a literary game, not unlike our movie Inglourious Basterds, which does not pretend to be the historical truth either.

Note that the distinction between fact and fiction was irrelevant to Greeks; they had a triple division - things that were untrue and could not be true (like myths about drops of blood falling into the sea, which caused the birth of winged horses), things that were true because they had to be true (like every logic deduction and mathematical proof), and things that might be true because they were possible, which includes legends, tragedies, comedies, and history.

This does not mean that Herodotus was not interested in "truth", but he gladly sacrificed historical accuracy to prove a more important truth. That non-Greeks could be right and that Greeks could be wrong was one of his main messages; Stesichorus' poem was useful.

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

Well spoken Jona !

*Which does not mean that one should ever trust any Greek bearing gifts......

M.VIB.M.

[Astiryu1]

Also well said! The fact remains that different accounts are present and all make sense. Herodotus is careful to state his opinions and what is deemed truth and he states that "Helen's stay in Egypt is truth" and backs it up with common sense. I would love to know if any Egyptian records would corroborate the story.

[hoplite14gr]

If you go through Pausanias "Description of Greece" you will find out that he is giving several variations of well known myths.
Kind regards

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

There's not so much contradiction, in my view. l.

Well i suppose not, if you look at it that way, I was simply refering to the actual stories themselves having different endings.
That in my mind is a contradiction.
I have read herodotus' translations and understand where he was coming from, but the story about the

There are two conflicting theories here (not counting the "Iliad" itself by Homer) that need to be examined. She shows up in the Odyssey as Menelaus' wife once more during the travels of Telemachus (Odysseus' Son).

is new to me...they cannot all be true.

She either made it to Troy, or she did not.......but if she escapesd from troy, or was kept in Egypt, and later was released or escaped, I cannot recall the tale at the moment, she would have been 'available' in both scenarios.

The Illiad and Odessy were primary school stories which infused in me an interest in my ancient heritage....but unfortunately, I had a long period where history was not covered in much depth or at all in the ancient period, so I had a gap in my education.
Have been trying to catch up for the last ten years now.

[Jona Lendering]

She either made it to Troy, or she did not...

In my opinion, this is the wrong approach to an ancient legend. We must not ask for consistency or try to recover what really happened. People were telling stories that made a particular point (e.g, the judgment of Paris: be careful with women). These stories could be adapted to different circumstances, and they were always changing. Stories about hero A could be added to hero B; the background could be changed; the meaning of the story could change. Oral traditions are all in flux, and that is not a disaster, because the historical truth is irrelevant compared to the function of these stories.

(Compare the acceptance speech by Obama, who quoted a letter from an old lady who said that the emancipation of the blacks was now completed - it is irrelevant whether that letter really existed. Joe the Plumber is another example. Its function is to remind the listener; to have that function, its truth is not important. The technical term is "integument", an argument that stresses a point without necessarily being true.)

What we know for certain is that by the eighth century, the Greeks were convinced that there had been an epic clash at Troy, and that by the sixth century, the story that one Helen had been involved, was sufficiently well-known to allow Stesichorus to play with it. Probably, there has indeed been a war -there is sufficient cuneiform evidence, I believe- but that's about everything a historian knows.

[M. Demetrius]

it is irrelevant whether that letter really existed.

Maybe off topic, but it's only important when it's stated as Actual Fact that it existed and is being quoted in contemporary setting. Either it is truth, or it is a lie. Irrelevant to the statement alleged to be contained in the letter, of course, though questionable as to veracity either way. To explain my viewpooint, I'd be violating the politics rule, so I'll leave that alone. I do understand what you mean, however.

Joe the Plumber...

He certainly exists, and is a news commentator of sorts.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

But nobody mentioned the tragedy of Eurypedes "Helen" played in 412 bc! This is where i first heard of the myth that Helen actually went in Egypt. Eurypides says that there are two Helens,one real one and one fake (!!!), the real one in Egypt and the fake one and "idol" produced by some godess(Hera?Aphrodite?)that was during the war in Troy.
This only proves that the ancients too were puzzled about what really happened,and for them the logical "truth" really mattered,at least for a tragedy!Menelaos after the war sails to Egypt where he meets Helen. I don't remember what happens with the "idol"
Khairete
Giannis

[Jona Lendering]

But nobody mentioned the tragedy of Eurypedes "Helen" played in 412 bc! ... This only proves that the ancients too were puzzled about what really happened

I think it means they did not take Homer literaly, and that both Herodotus and Euripides liked the literary game. They both employed Stesichorus' joke for their own purposes: Herodotus to show the Greeks that the barbarians knew a thing or two as well, Euripides to create a superb recognition scene.

I don't remember what happens with the "idol"

I seem to remember it was made of clouds, and could therefore vanish into thin air.

[Macedon]

Even today, when we ask ourselves why, for example, the Gulf War took place, there are those who will insist that the US had to invade because Saddam was a danger and was set on financing the war of terror against the West etc and those who will tell you that if Iraq had no oil there would be no war... Take your pick. The official story/myth/historical account etc is that Helen was brought to Troy, while another has her in fact been taken to Egypt (or Cyprus first and then Egypt, if my memory served me well), an effigy/doppelganger/someone who looked like her was taken to Troy. The gist of the story is that no ancient doubted that the Troyan War had happened and its most intricate details should not really be taken literally. Does it really matter if the "Durios Ippos" (Troyan Horse) was indeed some kind of a siege engine or a huge wooden horse? Was Iphigeneia (Agamemnon's sacrificed daughter) really slaughtered or was she taken by the Gods someplace safe as another story has it? Did the Greek princes join the war because they were allies and subjects of Agamemnon or because they had sworn an oath regarding Hellen some decades before the war? Was Pan the goat god or was he the general who invented the "wings-horns" of the ordered phalanx as Polyaenus claims? There are many interesting contradictions, alternative stories, theories etc. The question is what you want to achieve by adopting or questioning one.

[Astiryu1]

I know it is a confusing and likely unanswerable problem. The most we can get is a basic understanding through many sources other than the Iliad and Odyssey; hopefully a relatively unknown or overlooked one. In "The Histories" book 2 paragraph 112 the temple and name of "Aphrodite the Foreigner" is guessed at by Herodotus to describe Helen. In my view the most annoying quality of Herodotus is "naming foreign gods the same as the Greek". I am unsure of the Egyptian pantheon specifics but Isis is the only female relevant deity (I could be wrong) that comes to mind. Is there a temple that would fit the bill? Someone might know the location of this Proteus' kingdom for instance. The temple if existed would be somewhere. Hopefully already unearthed!
The cuneiform of the war mentioned above; is there a translation available? I am a little rusty! :roll: :lol:

[Jona Lendering]

The cuneiform of the war mentioned above; is there a translation available?

I summarized the evidence here.

[Astiryu1]

Thank You! Why am I not able to find these sites myself! :x lol: )