Dragons in Britain

[cagwinn]

Nowhere in ancient British literature can we find mention of a dragon.

What ancient British literature would that be? Dragons do appear in the earliest Welsh literature, which was composed int he early middle ages. Of course, in medieval Irish literature we have a mythical water beast called the Muirdris, whose name (dris) Calvert Watkins has proven (in his book "How to Kill a Dragon") to be ancient Celtic linguistic cognate of the Greek drakon, which (since it is definitely not a loanword) suggests that "dragons" were already known to the Proto-Indo-Europeans.

Likewise in Celtic art, we do not see a dragon until the seventh century, about the same time it shows up in early Norse art.

This is simply not true.

[cagwinn]

Linda Malcor's argument, meanwhile, that Artorius Castus was the commander of the Sarmatians sent to Britain in c175, and that his name endured in folk memory, relies on the assumption that a primipilaris ex-centurion would advance in his career by commencing the equestrian tres militiae at the level of cohort prefect. This is, one might say, counter factual to say the least :evil: . Castus was a primipilaris, he did spend time (undated) in Britain, but his epitaph does not suggest that he commanded auxiliaries, Sarmatian or otherwise, and certainly would have done so if he had (it records many lesser positions, for example). Malcor's essay is riven with similarly erroneous statements, and there remains no link between Castus and the Sarmatians.

Indeed - and, as the French epigrapher and historian Xavier Loriot has pointed out, Castus (who held the title of Praefectus Legionum [=Praefectus Castrorum] during his stint in Britain), was likely an older man at this point in his career and probably not commanding any troops on the battle field. His job while in Britain, as third in command of the VI Victrix (and perhaps one of two or three other Praefecti, given the plural abbreviation on his epitaph), would have been to oversee the general upkeep of the fortress (probably at York) and to maintain the supplies. It seems like it was a relatively cushy, primarily clerical position, awarded to older, career soldiers of equestrian rank right before retirement. He later, at the end of his military career, oversaw (as Dux Legionum), the transfer of some "Britannic" soldiers from one unidentified post to another on the Continent, but that need not have included any actual warfare on his part, either.

Altogether, he was not very reminiscent of the Saxon-slaying Arthur of the Historia Brittonum.

[Ron Andrea]

Holy Smoke! hock:

I'm gone a few weeks (death in the family) and when I return we're talking about dragons and China. Luckily, not Chinese dragons . . . yet. :wink:

Glad to see you folks were having a good time. 8)

[Astiryu1]

Holy Smoke! hock:

I'm gone a few weeks (death in the family) and when I return we're talking about dragons and China. Luckily, not Chinese dragons . . . yet. :wink:

Glad to see you folks were having a good time. 8)

I for one have relegated Chinese Dragons and other stuff in PM's. :wink: Alot more fun than is here actually!

[Alanus]

Nowhere in ancient British literature can we find mention of a dragon.

What ancient British literature would that be? Dragons do appear in the earliest Welsh literature, which was composed int he early middle ages. Of course, in medieval Irish literature we have a mythical water beast called the Muirdris, whose name (dris) Calvert Watkins has proven (in his book "How to Kill a Dragon") to be ancient Celtic linguistic cognate of the Greek drakon, which (since it is definitely not a loanword) suggests that "dragons" were already known to the Proto-Indo-Europeans.

My quote still stands even when corrected to "medieval." The earliest dragon, as mentioned above, appears in the Old English Beowulf. The "Muirdris" you describe occurs in medieval Irish literature, so how can anyone be sure it's an "ancient" Celtic cognate of the Greek drakon? Maybe it's a medieval cognate. (And even it it was? "Who cares?" to quote Chris Tucker. :lol: )

Likewise in Celtic art, we do not see a dragon until the seventh century, about the same time it shows up in early Norse art.

This is simply not true.

Denial is no argument. The incidences of dragons in pre sub-Roman Celtic art fall upon the singular chape pictured above. (Otherwise dragons are conspicuous by their absence, see Megaw & Megaw) The design is contentious at best and could be a lyre-bird motif. Similar or identical scabbard chapes-- in greater numbers, not just one-- have been found on the Hungarian Plain and along the lower Danube. By its more eastern profusion, this would indicate to me that the design was either borrowed from a steppe culture or was imported as a not-typical example.

I didn't intentionally imply that dragons were not known to the Greeks, Romans, or even as far back as the Proto-Indo-Europeans. I was talking about dragons as significant symbols. The dragon appears not to have a significant cultural impact upon the island until a later date, undefined yet likely introduced by the Roman cavalry-- two alas with dragons on their shields-- and through legionary cohorts of the late Imperial period. No doubt these mythical beasts have been around since the neolithic but the auspicious dragon symbol arrived first in China. The European (Celtic, Anglo-Saxon, Norse) dragon was depicted as evil. But it's significant that dragons on Roman shields were "good" or perhaps "protective," and this perception is Eastern or Asian... not the Saint George variety.

Agreed, I'm for moving this subject to PMs and returning to the main theme of this thread. :roll:

[Astiryu1]

The European (Celtic, Anglo-Saxon, Norse) dragon was depicted as evil. But it's significant that dragons on Roman shields were "good" or perhaps "protective," and this perception is Eastern or Asian... not the Saint George variety.

That is a very good point! How many European images depict an "evil" figure from early cultures? I don't know of any before Christianity myself but there is alot of period art out there that I haven't seen. The serpent representing the devil and by proxy the dragon doing the same in the Post Roman world may be something akin to propaganda to oust the Roman ways or similar aspect. I am not sure but it is something to be questioned.

[Ron Andrea]

Or maybe a new topic? Or one under "Off Topic"? :?

Where are the moderators when you need one? :roll:

[Robert Vermaat]

Ron is right. People, please either return to the topic of cavalry and post-Ropman britain or more these topics elsewhere. I'll stifle this discussion if it continues in this thread. Come on folks, we've been here before! If the topic has run it's course, so be it.

[cagwinn]

My quote still stands even when corrected to "medieval." The earliest dragon, as mentioned above, appears in the Old English Beowulf.

No, your quote does not stand at all - there are dragons mentioned in the earliest Welsh poetry - in the Gododdin, for example, which was composed prior to Beowulf. The story of the warring dragons of Dinas Emrys from the Historia Brittonum is roughly co-eval with Beowulf, if it does not actually pre-date it (the HB was assembled c. 829, but draws upon much older material; Beowulf was composed c. 8th-11th c.).

The "Muirdris" you describe occurs in medieval Irish literature, so how can anyone be sure it's an "ancient" Celtic cognate of the Greek drakon? Maybe it's a medieval cognate. (And even it it was? "Who cares?" to quote Chris Tucker. :lol: )

Read Watkins' book - and maybe brush up a little on historical linguistics, to understand how one can know that this is not a medieval cognate.

The incidences of dragons in pre sub-Roman Celtic art fall upon the singular chape pictured above. (Otherwise dragons are conspicuous by their absence, see Megaw & Megaw) The design is contentious at best and could be a lyre-bird motif. Similar or identical scabbard chapes-- in greater numbers, not just one-- have been found on the Hungarian Plain and along the lower Danube. By its more eastern profusion, this would indicate to me that the design was either borrowed from a steppe culture or was imported as a not-typical example.

There are numerous snake-like beasts in ancient Celtic art (including the ram-headed serpent found on the Gundestrup cauldron and elsewhere, and other dragon-like beasts on the cauldron) that can be plausibly identified with the dragons of medieval Irish and British tradition.

Regarding the dragon-pairs from the scabbards, note the following:

"One of the few genuinely pan-European elements in early La Tene art is the dragon-pair motif, embellishing the upper end of the front-plate of scabbards from south-eastern Britain to Transylvania, with examples south of the Alps and one other outlier across the Pyrenees and de Navarro saw these devices as evidence of orientalizing influences in early Celtic art, or even as a direct Scythian introduction into eastern Central Europe, a view that would not have seen implausible, given the predominantly eastern distribution at the time and the prevailing climate of diffusionism as an explanation for cultural innovation. Subsequent discoveries in the west, and critical analysis of the dating of the constituent types, have now rendered this view obsolete, though the basic classification of dragon-pairs remains that of de Navarro." (Archaeology of Celtic Art, Dennis Harding, Routledge 2007, p. 102)

You may also want to read:
A P Fitzpatrick, "Dancing with dragons: fantastic animals in the earlier Celtic art of Iron Age Britain" in "The Later Iron Age in Britain and Beyond", Colin Haselgrove and Tom Moore (eds.), Oxbow Books, 2007

[Ron Andrea]

Perhaps we should start a new thread for dragon and other symbols in Roman art or some such.

[Alanus]

Thanks, Chris

I'll check those resources out.
But the dragon is flying from this thread. I would leave it more ambiguously-- :mrgreen: -- that military tactics and equipment in post-Roman Britain could easily have been influenced by eastern cultures, as passed to it by the Roman war machine. Then we can get back on course.

Best,
aj