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Mykale, a naval battle?
#16
Quote:All of the reproductions of the Persian depicted on the gateway in Darius' palace at Persepolis always show him holding a handle on the wicker 'shield' in front of him. While at Persepolis I noticed that this doesn't actually exist... there is no handle at all. Interestingly their spears are very long, 9-10 feet in length.

The only positive Persian depiction of a shield we have is the 'violin/dipylon/waisted' shield at Persepolis. I don't use Greek depictions as evidence as the 'Persians' do not actually wear Iranian clothing or use Iranian Weapons!

Spara from a much later date have been found almost intact in Dura Europos. They had a central handle. The shields are shown on Secunda's Osprey "The battle of Marathon". The spara could certainly be sticked to the ground,allowing their bearers to actually shout with bows. This is shown in a greek vase,and i don't believe the artist just imagined this idea. Far more though are shown carried with a handle.

I think your idea that the spara only were meant to form a palisade comes from the fact the Herodotus says that the Persians started building a wooden palisade,and the fact that then he also speaks of a palisade of spara that falls at some pont. However,herodotus says "stone and wood palisade" and he also says that it had gates. Generally he makes it pretty clear that the spara palisade is not the same as the one around the persian camp,which protected also their ships.
Khaire
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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#17
Quote:
immortal:7egp523d Wrote:All of the reproductions of the Persian depicted on the gateway in Darius' palace at Persepolis always show him holding a handle on the wicker 'shield' in front of him. While at Persepolis I noticed that this doesn't actually exist... there is no handle at all. Interestingly their spears are very long, 9-10 feet in length.

The only positive Persian depiction of a shield we have is the 'violin/dipylon/waisted' shield at Persepolis. I don't use Greek depictions as evidence as the 'Persians' do not actually wear Iranian clothing or use Iranian Weapons!

Spara from a much later date have been found almost intact in Dura Europos. They had a central handle. The shields are shown on Secunda's Osprey "The battle of Marathon". The spara could certainly be sticked to the ground,allowing their bearers to actually shout with bows. This is shown in a greek vase,and i don't believe the artist just imagined this idea. Far more though are shown carried with a handle.

I think your idea that the spara only were meant to form a palisade comes from the fact the Herodotus says that the Persians started building a wooden palisade,and the fact that then he also speaks of a palisade of spara that falls at some pont. However,herodotus says "stone and wood palisade" and he also says that it had gates. Generally he makes it pretty clear that the spara palisade is not the same as the one around the persian camp,which protected also their ships.
Khaire
Giannis

You cannot use the Dara Europos shields as evidence for Achaemenid equipment, they date to almost 1000 years later! The Pazyryk sheild is another matter.
I have found one greek depiction of what looks like a Spara being carried with a handle (although you cannot see his hand). As I mentioned in a previous post, I am reluctant to use Greek depictions of Persians as evidence for their appearence. All the 'Persians' on Greek pottery are equipped with Greek, Thracian and Skythian weapons. Almost all of them wear thracian head dress too.
I think it is much safer to base the appearence and equpment of the Persians on Persian depictions of themselves. If you look at the so called Spara at Persepolis, it matches none of the Greek depictions of it. It has a solid 'frame' with straight wicker poles inserted into vertically into them.
Actually Herodotus says:
"And first the combat was at the wicker shields. Afterwards when these were swept down, a fierce contest took place by the side of the temple of Demeter, which lasted long, and ended in a hand-to-hand struggle....... The Persians were not a whit inferior to the Greeks; but they were without bucklers"

As the Persian infantry had advanced out of their camp, it is safe to say these could be moved easily by hand and set up on a prop in any position allowing the bearer to shoot his bow.
Stephen May - <a class="postlink" href="http://www.immortalminiatures.com">www.immortalminiatures.com
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#18
Quote: In the OTE (Greek telecom company) museum there lots of communication types available to the ancient Greeks.
http://www.ote.gr/portal/page/portal/OT

Thank you Stefanos, this link led to an informative article on ancient communication, some interesting images also.

After considering the information contained at the aforementioned OTE museum's website, I am inclined to retract my earlier comment of "not impossible but certainly improbable", it seems the ancient Greeks had established quite a system for communication over long distances, it also makes perfect sense that the forces at Plataea and those at Delos would have had some sort of relay of information between them. Exactly how information would have been passed across the Aegean to Mykale in such a short time is possibly still open to debate (island to island, ship to ship perhaps?) but considering the many amazing inventions of these ancient ones, I am convinced this was more of a possibility than I had at first imagined. Confusedhock:
_____________________________________________________
Mark Hayes

"The men who once dwelled beneath the crags of Mt Helicon, the broad land of Thespiae now boasts of their courage"
Philiades

"So now I meet my doom. Let me at least sell my life dearly and have a not inglorius end, after some feat of arms that shall come to the ears of generations still unborn"
Hektor, the Iliad
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#19
Stephen,of course i'm not arguing that one should use dura finds to justify anything in the fifth century bc. However,the Dura shields have extraordinary resemblance to both descriptions and to ancient greek representations. They are wicker branches put one next to the other tightly,through holes in rawhide, that form patterns identical to those of the vases. In at least one of the vases i have seen,the parallel wicker branches are indicated. Their size and shape is also the same. The Dura shields had a central handle,and at least three spara on vases are shown carried by a handle. Two of them are in the same vase and one is shown face on and the other in profile. In another vase the shield is shown in profile,and rests to the ground with a special stick supporting it.The Persian is fighting behind it without touching it.
It is not true that Persians were always shown in thracian or scythian gear(or a combination of the two together with imaginary clothing). In some vases depicting the sparabara and painted shortly after the battle of Marathon,the persians are shown in real tiaras,with wide chitons over their anaxyridae,and with t&y cuirasses,some quilted and some similar to the greeks. This seems a rather accurate representation of what the greeks must have faced in Battle.
I believe that the painters themselves must had seen the Persians,since it's rather difficult to describe a tiara and depict it so accurately only by second hand description!
Thus,i let it in you how to interpret the fact that the spara on greek vases -all of them- are like a photo of the Dura shields,that were in use 1000 years later!
I haven't seen the iranian depiction of a spara. Can you post a photo?
Khaire
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
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#20
Quote:Stephen,of course i'm not arguing that one should use dura finds to justify anything in the fifth century bc. However,the Dura shields have extraordinary resemblance to both descriptions and to ancient greek representations. They are wicker branches put one next to the other tightly,through holes in rawhide, that form patterns identical to those of the vases. In at least one of the vases i have seen,the parallel wicker branches are indicated. Their size and shape is also the same. The Dura shields had a central handle,and at least three spara on vases are shown carried by a handle. Two of them are in the same vase and one is shown face on and the other in profile. In another vase the shield is shown in profile,and rests to the ground with a special stick supporting it.The Persian is fighting behind it without touching it.
It is not true that Persians were always shown in thracian or scythian gear(or a combination of the two together with imaginary clothing). In some vases depicting the sparabara and painted shortly after the battle of Marathon,the persians are shown in real tiaras,with wide chitons over their anaxyridae,and with t&y cuirasses,some quilted and some similar to the greeks. This seems a rather accurate representation of what the greeks must have faced in Battle.
I believe that the painters themselves must had seen the Persians,since it's rather difficult to describe a tiara and depict it so accurately only by second hand description!
Thus,i let it in you how to interpret the fact that the spara on greek vases -all of them- are like a photo of the Dura shields,that were in use 1000 years later!
I haven't seen the iranian depiction of a spara. Can you post a photo?
Khaire
Giannis

Actually the size and shape of them is comletely different to the Persian Spara. The Sassainid ones are much smaller and have a pointed end. I cannot find a Achaemenid representation that has the same decoration?
This is a photo I took at Persepolis. Notice the lack of handle or any rawhide patterns (although it is possible this was painted on). The construction is much more simular to earlier Assyrian shields.
Persians did not wear chitons and we are told by Herodotus that they wore Egyptian style cuirasses, which again would have been Assyrian in style. We know that scaled skthian armour was worn though.
[Image: P1020911.jpg]

I would be interested if you could show me the handles depicted on Greek vases, and also the correct tiara.
Herodotus' mention that when the sheilds were knocked down suggests to me that they were propped up at this point in the battle.
Stephen May - <a class="postlink" href="http://www.immortalminiatures.com">www.immortalminiatures.com
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#21
This would seem to be the moment of pushing down the Persian barricade of shields:
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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#22
This is the only depiction I have seen which seems to have a bearer interacting with the shield. But the problem is in the costume. The head dress is not the Mede tiara and trousers more typical of the black sea region. He also is missing the knee length tunic typical of Persian dress.
The decoration does not look like rawhide to me. It more resembles Kurdish wicker work which is decorated with coloured cord wound around each individual reed shaft in alternating bands. I'll find a picture.

Im Curios if there is actually a Greek depiction of the handle?
Stephen May - <a class="postlink" href="http://www.immortalminiatures.com">www.immortalminiatures.com
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#23
Note that in that vase the shield is raised from the ground.
And no,this is not what i meant by "proper dress". The tiaras on the other vases are like those on the alexander sarcophagus and on the alexander mosaic. They loer face is covered as far as i can remember.
The Dura shields i am reffering to actually resemble much the Persian relief. Someone that has the Osprey book "the battle of Marathon" can you please post a picture? I'm in my home town for summer,and i'm not in my personal pc,so i lack my vase photos archive and i don't have the book with me.
In the persian relief it could very well be that we actually see the front of the shield.
I don't have any doubt that the spara could form a wall by putting them in line,resting on the ground without the men bearing or holding them. Even this has been depicted on a vase,as i have said. But i also can't believe that an army with sparabara would have to abandon the shields if they wanted to get offensive in hand to hand combat. Or have to carry them in some awkward way,instead than with a central handle.
I'm sorry that i'm not posting the photos i'm reffering to,but i'm sure someone will have the book,and more spara vase photos will show up.
Khaire
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
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#24
Quote: Old Husker said:
His list of Greek vs Persian actions should be a good reminder to all that real ancient history is always so very much richer than can be seen in the general references and documentaries most people read and see. Learning about such little-discussed episodes is what keeps bringing me back to RAT and its incredibly well-informed threads again and again!


This is quite true.
_____________________________________________________
Mark Hayes

"The men who once dwelled beneath the crags of Mt Helicon, the broad land of Thespiae now boasts of their courage"
Philiades

"So now I meet my doom. Let me at least sell my life dearly and have a not inglorius end, after some feat of arms that shall come to the ears of generations still unborn"
Hektor, the Iliad
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#25
Quote:Im Curios if there is actually a Greek depiction of the handle?
Yes there is. I won't take the time to hunt it down online, but its probably in Nick Sekunda's Osprey (edit: p. 19, doesn't show the handle but does show a shield being held with the wielder's hand about a foot below the top of the shield. Another vase on the same page shows a prop holding up a shield). Good point about the differences in appearance between the Persepolis sparas and the Dura and Pazyryk ones!
Nullis in verba

I have not checked this forum frequently since 2013, but I hope that these old posts have some value. I now have a blog on books, swords, and the curious things humans do with them.
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#26
Ive had a look through Sekunda's Marathon book and I cant see a depiction of a handle on the Persian Spara. Just so you know, I am not saying it didn't exist.. I am just curious why it is not shown.
Ive finally found some colour photos of the Pazyryk shields.
These are 5th or 4th century BC in date and come from tombs that were rich in Iranian goods. It is interesting that the first shields decoration is Mesopotamian in Style.
Note that these to not have handles, but rawhide straps.
[Image: ZGX6B7DY_40GWTE023.jpg]
[Image: REA5Y_40N8IAFVSDZZ3.jpg]
Stephen May - <a class="postlink" href="http://www.immortalminiatures.com">www.immortalminiatures.com
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#27
But these were supposed to be small shields tied to the upper arm,correct? This explains the leather straps and the lack of handle. They're made exactly the same way as the dura shields,only those are bigger.
The more i look the persian relief,the more it seems to me we see the front of the shield. Part of his clothes and right hand are hidden behind the shield,and this can't happen if we see the back.
Khaire
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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#28
Quote:But these were supposed to be small shields tied to the upper arm,correct? This explains the leather straps and the lack of handle. They're made exactly the same way as the dura shields,only those are bigger.
The more i look the persian relief,the more it seems to me we see the front of the shield. Part of his clothes and right hand are hidden behind the shield,and this can't happen if we see the back.
Khaire
Giannis

Yes, these are made the same way. No one is quite sure how they were used, but that is the common thought. The Dura ones are not much bigger...
[Image: img141.jpg]

Your right, it does look like his other arm is going behind the shield. I had not noticed that before to be honest.
Im starting to think that the decoration we see on the surviving shields may have been painted onto the relief. The Persepolis Spara has a curios band running across the top and bottom. This may be a horizontal stick like the ones on the other bigger Pazyryk shields (I am frustrated I cannot find photos of these!). These other shields also had a curved upper edge. I will concede that there is definitely evidence of this method being in use for 1000 years, I was hasty in saying you could not use the Dura ones as evidence.
I stand by my statement regarding Greek depictions though! Big Grin
Stephen May - <a class="postlink" href="http://www.immortalminiatures.com">www.immortalminiatures.com
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#29
Quote:Ive had a look through Sekunda's Marathon book and I cant see a depiction of a handle on the Persian Spara. Just so you know, I am not saying it didn't exist.. I am just curious why it is not shown.
Ive finally found some colour photos of the Pazyryk shields.
These are 5th or 4th century BC in date and come from tombs that were rich in Iranian goods. It is interesting that the first shields decoration is Mesopotamian in Style.
Note that these to not have handles, but rawhide straps.
I can't see a handle in either image (my memory was misleading me). But definitely on the Persepolis relief, and probably on the Attic vase, the artist is showing the front and one edge of the shield. The handle (whether made out of cloth, leather, wood, or something else) is blocked from sight by something closer to the viewer.

The Assyrian siege shields with curving tops look much thicker than the Persian ones; they look like they may be made from bundles of reeds. I'm not sure if a shield of just one layer of reeds or sticks would be enough to stop arrows.
Nullis in verba

I have not checked this forum frequently since 2013, but I hope that these old posts have some value. I now have a blog on books, swords, and the curious things humans do with them.
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#30
This thread has been quite a revelation for me on details of the Persian shield! The only thing that I'd like to point out regards the excellent illustration that Paul Bardunias posted back on July 7, which shows the Persian shield-bearer jabbing with a spear. I believe that this must have been the mode in which the front line or two in a normal Persian battle array fought most of the time, holding the shield with one hand (even if it's bottom were resting on the ground or even shallowly entrenched) and striking overhead with a spear. This approach would have strengthened the shield wall by both pushing back against othismos and jabbing to wound the enemy front-men as well as discourage them from pressing against the spara. Such a technique parallels dipictions on Babylonian artifacts displayed at the British Museum, which show pairs of shield-bears with an archer, suggesting that such earlier Middle Eastern warfare probably informed the later Persian method of shield use.

The idea of Persian front-rankers using bows rather than spears seems much less likely; even if their spara could be fixed in the ground, it would have been far too easy for an attacking hoplite to hit and knock it over. Of course, against an opponent that stood at a distance to employ missile weapons, it might have been more practical to add bow fire from the leading ranks, thus this could have have been used against some Asian opponents with weak 'shock' fighting capability.
It\'s only by appreciating accurate accounts of real combat past and present that we can begin to approach the Greek hoplite\'s hard-won awareness of war\'s potential merits and ultimate limitations.

- Fred Eugene Ray (aka "Old Husker")
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