Dealer Offers Pieces of \'Lorica Segmentata\' - But Are They?

[Lindsay_Powell]

A US-based dealer in ancient coins and artifects is offering for sale pieces of what he describes 'lorica segmentata'. Each comprises two pairs of metal plates which appear to be attached to each other by rings and along the outer edges are drilled or stamped holes for another attachment. One fragment (A) measures 195x26mm and 193x22mm, the other (B) 170x37mm and 174x29mm. Both fragment pairs are made of bronze. Provenance is not disclosed.

What do you think they are?

For the record I am not in any way associated with, or a spokesman, for the dealer.

[attachment=1:3sbcoiuo]<!-- ia1 Fragment Pair A.jpg<!-- ia1 [/attachment:3sbcoiuo]
[attachment=0:3sbcoiuo]<!-- ia0 Fragment Pair B.jpg<!-- ia0 [/attachment:3sbcoiuo]

[M. Demetrius]

The caption says "Roman bronze armor"...I wonder. Is there any known example of bronze seg?

[Dan Howard]

Assuming that the plates are from a type of armour, one possible candidate is "mail and plates". The holes around the edges are for more mail links. I'd bet a lot of money that is has nothing to do with Rome.

[Lindsay_Powell]

@ David: That's in part why I was asking. I also cannot explain the holes at the ends, presumably for stitching organic material; or the links along the lengths with the rings. These are not characteristics of the articulated segmented armour that I am familiar with.

[Matthew Amt]

Catch that train of logic? They couldn't find any references to bronze lorica segmentata, so THESE must have belonged to someone IMPORTANT! Gads...

It's not lorica segmentata. It *might* be armor, but it could be much younger than they say, or much older! Hard to tell (and obviously not important) when you're looting potentially valuable archeological sites for artifacts. Could be mud flaps from an old truck, for all I know.

There are surviving fragments of Roman copper alloy armguard (manica), but no confirmed segmentata plates in brass or bronze.

Caveat Emptor...

Matthew

[Gaius Decius Aquilius]

Lamellar. This is the same construction the Assyrians ran around in, and is found in the 'Mars of Todi" that is associated with the Etruscans. Lammellar can be foud in Europe, especially Eastern Europe well into the Middle Ages and in some forms mixed with mail in the Mideast especially India untill the 1800s.

No comment on age, authenticity.

I have hunderds similar in shape and size to those posted. I made them a few years back. The pattern I used was 3rd century.

Ralph

EDIT: Source on Mars of Todi was Connolly, 'Greece and Rome at War', 1981, pg 70. This piece is of cast bronze, now in the Vatican.
EDIT 2: Assyrian use of lamellar (explicit usage), including photographs (pg. 20) from British Museum from "Palace of Tiglath-Pilsor III, Healy, 1991, 'The Ancient Assrians' Osprey Press. Simillar construction From a second mellinnium from Nuzi.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Just a note that the Mars of Todi has a cuirass constructed in a much different way and that type of etruscan cuirass has always been represented in matterial that resembles the typical tube & yoke cuirass. Close examination of the Mars of Todi makes it more obvious that the matterial was not bronze lameral but something softer (leather?). Even the coloured etruscan frescoes show this type of armour in white color,in contrast with the bronze helmets and greaves which are yellow.
Khaire
Giannis

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

Here is a nice advert of an honest artist selling a cheekpiece in bronze and stating it is a replica.

i would say, buyer beware with that dealer who sells the lamellar stuff...

http://cgi.ebay.com/Roman-Bronze-Part-H ... 27b376f255

M.VIB.M.

[Dan Howard]

Lamellar. This is the same construction the Assyrians ran around in, and is found in the 'Mars of Todi" that is associated with the Etruscans.

The Assyrians used scale, not lamellar, and all surviving Assyrian armour fragments are of iron not bronze. The Mars of Todi is more likely to be scale also. The above photos are definitely not from lamellar. Assuming that they are from armour, the shape of the plates would place them in a segmented typology. But I'm with Matt. The above has a greater chance of being an old mud flap than Roman armour.

Why is this thread in the Greek section?

[Gaius Decius Aquilius]

Lammelar is a form of scale. At hand I have photos of bronze lammelar construction armor found in a context dating it to Tiglath-Pileser III and in the British Museum. Unless these are an outright fabrication the usage of lamellar as opposed to scale is a matter of semantics. I see multiple references to Assyrian use of lamellar, both bronze and iron. The Nuzi examples were earlier but appear to have the sacles laced directly together which is, as far as I know, is the definition of lammelar.

I found some further references to lammelar armor in photographs dating to the late 1800s showing Siberian-Eskimo armor described as lammelar. Film footage of the 1920s of Tibetan horsemen is reportedly lammelar, of which examples are noted by Robinson, 1967, 1995. This is an older reference, but I do not see any work post dating this.

Ralph

[Dan Howard]

Lammelar is a form of scale. At hand I have photos of bronze lammelar construction armor found in a context dating it to Tiglath-Pileser III and in the British Museum. Unless these are an outright fabrication the usage of lamellar as opposed to scale is a matter of semantics. I see multiple references to Assyrian use of lamellar, both bronze and iron. The Nuzi examples were earlier but appear to have the sacles laced directly together which is, as far as I know, is the definition of lammelar.

The general definition of scale is a series of small overlapping plates attached to a foundation. If the plates are assembled so that no backing is required then it is defined as lamellar. Using these definitions all the above types of armour are scale (except the North American examples). Personally I'd rather get rid of the term "scale" all together and classify it as a subtype of lamellar.

Regarding Nuzi, that armour is definitely classed as scale. According to Kendall the scales were assembled into rows and each row was attached to a goatskin garment. I've never thought of the Nuzi site as Assyrian. I've always considered it to be Mittanian or even Akkadian.

In any case I don't know how you would classifty the initial photos as a type of lamellar. The plates are way too large.

[Lindsay_Powell]

Great discussion guys!