Question about the Roman \'wedge formation\'

[Ron Andrea]

Bryon raises an interesting issue. We know normal Roman deployments looked different than those of many of their enemies, most especially the open, staggered spacing he referred to. Could this whole issue by a matter of perception and emphasis, rather than of some strange, new formation?

There's always the additional possibility that would-be reformers tried saw-tooth formations at varying times with varying success.

[Vindex]

I'm wondering if this saw tooth is also not just an interpretation of the spacing of the troops in each century, alternate positions in each row , with a prope spacing could be interpreted as a Saw tooth...

I'm with you on this one GJC! I cannot see any offensive use for a "saw tooth" manoeuvre at all.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Well, I'm not sure I would go that far myself. If the centuries were all formed up as individual wedges, they would penetrate
th mass of unorganized and demoralised Britons quite rapidly...and remember, its only the following troops who have to negotiatre a pile of bodies, the leading edges will be cutting virgin flesh, mostly. I wouldn't rule it out....a saw of steel against soft wood with only the odd hard knot of armoured opposition.

[Ron Andrea]

Am I correct in assuming that you would rarely "maneuver" anything smaller than a century, since the cohort is the basic combat element?

[Vindex]

Well, I'm not sure I would go that far myself. If the centuries were all formed up as individual wedges, they would penetrate
th mass of unorganized and demoralised Britons quite rapidly...and remember, its only the following troops who have to negotiatre a pile of bodies, the leading edges will be cutting virgin flesh, mostly. I wouldn't rule it out....a saw of steel against soft wood with only the odd hard knot of armoured opposition.

I think we're getting into a circular discussion here. If the "saw tooth" is possibly the staggered line as mentioned above, it must be a different formation to a wedge as a wedge has a distinct "point" as discussed earlier in the thread. A wedge is clearly offensive as a means of battering through a line of the enemny. Whether each century formed a wedge and then, added together made a "saw tooth" is perhaps where we started this discussion. It would require very clear orders and practice to do this manoeuvre in the heat of battle.

And I think if the "saw tooth" was based on anything, it would be based on the century as a cohort wedge would require a formation as the point (the "point " century in modern terms), with the remainder of the cohort fanning out behind it.

The wedge is found in classical references, I do not believe "saw tooth" is but it has become an enforcement of modern command and control techniques of troops on the battle field the Romans just would not have.

[Dithrambus]

The wedge is found in classical references, I do not believe "saw tooth" is but it has become an enforcement of modern command and control techniques of troops on the battle field the Romans just would not have.

I agree and I would go a step further and say the I doubt if such a formation spread out over a large area could be maintained by a modern army with current communication tech. (just my opinion folks :wink: )

[M. Demetrius]

More than once, Caesar wrote that he would hold an officer's meeting the night before and explain what he wanted to happen in detail. The centurions, generals, etc., would argue their various positions, and the decisions would be made.

No doubt, the centurions would know what they were to do. [I'm making this signal up] "When we hear two long blasts of the horns, and four short", then our cohort is to __________" And the same command might possibly mean something different to another cohort. For example, I read one writer's report of a battle which had the center of the line fall back, drawing the attackers in, then the ranks on both sides turned and destroyed the now trapped enemy. If I'm not mistaken, it was a Pompey vs. somebody battle. We know there were trumpet commands. We know the soldiers were wont to rally to a signum, for example, and Caesar mentioned some kind of [unknown] signal from the standard's motion.

The rest is utterly unknown details, which I submit can be simulated with something simple and recognizable, such as Rusty's bugle/cornicen/tuba signals.

[jkaler48]

Well, what we know is that the Romans used a formation called cuneus, wedge, and that ad cuneum, to the wedge, was one of the commands that sent them there.

What we don't know is what that formation looked like, or how it was organized. Heck, we aren't even completely sure how a command to change formations was issued to 20K clattering, jingling, foot-tramping troops so they knew what to do. Voice, relayed voice, horn signals, signum (standard) signals, or some combination...all are good suggestions, but little is known about the specifics.

One can speculate that a hand and arm signal could be given by the Centurion. Centurion steps forward V paces raises arms in a "V" and commands "Ad Cuneum" Standard Bearer
gives the signal for "Attention" Cornicen sounds the "Ad Cuneum" (There are limits to how many unique standard signals that can be easily recognized)

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

You basically beat me to that Dave. I am sure paulinus? had time for the meeting to relay to all the officers what he planned on,
as with the carefully chosen ground, set piece battles were the Roman forte....being amushed by hordes was not.

[Vindex]

Please don't think I am suggesting that there was no command and control on the battlefield hock: . Of course battles had to be planned and centurions to be given orders on what they were required to do/achieve.

But in the context of the wedge - a "hasty" tactic in modern parlance - the question remains was it on the initiative of the centurion to conduct this formation (briefed before hand to take the opportunity should it arise?) OR was it ordered centrally, relayed by the force/overall commander.

...and if it was ordered centrally, would the order be understood by all centuria/cohorts sufficiently well/efficiently enough to change the entire battle front into the type of formation depicted in the video clips and make a "saw tooth"?

I am sure that across time the addage of no plan succeeding contact with the enemy is just as relevant as it always has been

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Well that is the impression I got from the decription of the battle, which I cannot recall which one now :roll:
but if each century or cohort was formed up in a wedge formation, there you have your saw-tooth formation....is
this too hard to achieve? Either way, I do not find incomprejensible for the Roman army to have managed this.

[Nathan Ross]

but if each century or cohort was formed up in a wedge formation, there you have your saw-tooth formation....

This does seem to be going in circles now! I don't think anyone has yet given any proof that this 'sawtooth' thing actually existed - in the battle against Boudicca the word is 'wedge', which is a well known formation - Vegetius implies it was rather blunt-tipped and more of a mass of charging men ('boar's head'), but there are various theories about that.

However, the 'sawtooth' thing does turn up in a few latin dictionaries, with serra or serrata as a 'formation in the shape of the saw'. Trouble is, none of them give any source for this. Only Roman Antiquities of 1835 provides any help: "When they (Roman soldiers) advanced or retreated in separate parties, without remaining in any fixed position, it was called SERRA" - the reference is just 'Festus'. This is probably the Roman grammarian Festus - so probably the note is part of some etymological point about the different uses of the word 'saw' or something. But Festus wasn't a military man, and since no military writers mention it we might regard it as dubious at best. Anyway, it doesn't seem to have much connection with the 'wedge' - instead it's a sort of mobile broken-up battle line, perhaps, with the word describing more the motion of a saw cutting wood than the actual shape of the formation. How this got conflated with the 'wedge', and applied to the Boudicca battle, I don't know. :o

- Nathan

[M. Demetrius]

It's only my own impression, but when I read what you'd written, I had a mental picture of a saw blade moving forward and back, rather than a static view of the teeth of a saw. I admit my brain doesn't work the same as many other people's though.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I can't recall where i read it either to be honest.........I have been through quite afew books in the last few years...pity I'm no smarter for it! :lol:

[Dithrambus]

I can't recall where i read it either to be honest.........I have been through quite afew books in the last few years...pity I'm no smarter for it! :lol:

I tried recently to remember how many books I had read over the past year, I lost count at around thirty, my problem is retention, I am simply not smart enough to even remember all of the titles that I have read, much less the content! :lol:

Back to the 'sawtooth', I may have been hasty in my doubt of the Roman Legions ability to perform the 'sawtooth', even so, I tend to agree with Nathan Ross and others who have pointed to the lack of literary evidence along with the doubtful effectiveness of such a form. It does look really cool in the documentary though!