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Chrimes quotes Nymphodorus of Syracuse as stating that Spartans called their Thorakes "Aigis" or animal skins in the 4th c. The implications of this in the great linen-v-leather debate are obvious. Does anyone have access to the fragment?
Paul M. Bardunias
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A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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This is very interesting. You are doing great work Paul!
Its a pitty you found this after your article 
Stephen May - <a class="postlink" href="http://www.immortalminiatures.com">www.immortalminiatures.com
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Aegis is the animal skin.
It also the denotes the skin of the goat (aix or aiga in ancient Greek) tha brest fed Zeus
When the goat died Zeus offered the skin to his daughter Athena who threw it over her shoulders.
The weaving of the skin could strike terror and force armies to flee according to Homer.
Perhaps the Spartan might have used the term for armor in homour of the "Chalkioikos Athena" of Sparta.
Even to today in modern Greek survives the term "HYPO TIN AEGIDA" meaning that a person or event is supported by someone.
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Quote:Perhaps the Spartan might have used the term for armor in homour of the "Chalkioikos Athena" of Sparta.
I agree this is very possible, and interesting in and of itself. In this context it might be interesting that one of the best known linen armors (perhaps clothing) was covering a statue of Athena- with a companion sent to Sparta.
Paul M. Bardunias
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A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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Quote:Quote:Perhaps the Spartan might have used the term for armor in homour of the "Chalkioikos Athena" of Sparta.
I agree this is very possible, and interesting in and of itself. In this context it might be interesting that one of the best known linen armors (perhaps clothing) was covering a statue of Athena- with a companion sent to Sparta.
It is a grave mistake to assume that the 'thorakes' of linen sent to dress two Goddess statues - Athena in Lindos/Rhodes, and the other are 'armour'.(Herodotus II.182)
'Thorakes' here is almost certainly used in it's original and more literal sense of 'body covering'.
Statues of Greek Goddesses were NEVER depicted with attributes of body armour, AFIK. The closest attributes to 'body armour' are Athena's goatskin 'aegis' ( and Corinthian helmet), so the 'thorakes/body coverings' sent as presents by Pharoah Amasis are most unlikely to have been armour. Herodotus (III.47) describes the Spartan example as "of linen, embroidered with gold thread and cotton, and had a number of figures of animals woven into the fabric.The most remarkable thing about it was that each fine thread of which the material was woven was made up of three hundred and sixty separate strands, all distinctly visible."
What is being described here is clearly a garment, remarkable for it's fineness, and not a piece of armour.....
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)
"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
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It is my understanding that Spartan "angry" gods were depicted armed.
Paul M. Bardunias
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A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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It seems fairly straight forward to refute. All we need is an example of a Greek image of female god that is depicted in armour. Or an original source specifically stating that Greek female gods we NOT depicted in armour.
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Quote:It is my understanding that Spartan "angry" gods were depicted armed.
Evidence for this ?????.....not to mention that 'armed' e.g. Zeus with thunderbolt or Poseidon with trident ( and otherwise nude) is not armoured.....
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)
"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
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Quote:Evidence for this ?????.....
In Sparta even Aphrodite was: ????????? ?????? ?????????? (Paus. 3.15.10) or equipped for war! What a woman!
In Plutarch's life of Fabius [22], Fabius tells the officer in charge of the plunder of Taras to "leave their angry gods to the Tarantines". The "Angry" has been explained by way of a tradition of Spartan statues bearing arms and armor.
Plutarch also notes in his Moralia:
232 D Charillus 5 When someone inquired why all the statues of the gods erected among them were equipped with weapons,201 he said, "So that we may not put upon the gods the reproaches which are spoken against men because of their cowardice, and so that the young men may not pray to the gods unarmed."
III.28 They worship Aphrodite in her full armour, and the statues of all the gods, both female and male, they make with spear in hand to indicate that all the gods have the valour which war demands.
I don't have the Greek version, but probably the term is the enigmatic "hopla" which will not help much. The second quote could be read to indicate only Aphrodite was armored, but more probably it simply stresses the fact that she was only armored in Sparta- something the other greeks found titilating to judge from the attention paid to it.
Paul M. Bardunias
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A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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In Argos there was also Hera Areia carrying a spear and Except Sparta also dwellers of central Greece (Mostly Doreans) worshiped Aphrodite Areia depicted also armed.
Even the most peace loving deities had a warlike natured an dwere revered with the surname AREIOS = warlike.
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Quote:Even the most peace loving deities had a warlike natured an dwere revered with the surname AREIOS = warlike.
Do you happen to know of any images of any of them specifically in their warlike aspect?
Paul M. Bardunias
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A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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Quote:Quote:Even the most peace loving deities had a warlike natured an dwere revered with the surname AREIOS = warlike.
Do you happen to know of any images of any of them specifically in their warlike aspect?
Hera the shield bearer Commentary on Pindar Olympionikos 7 152
Hera Areia.
Farnell "Cults" page 187
J Arnold "American Journal of Archeology" vol 41 page 436
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?????· ?? ?? ??? ????????? ???????. ??? ??????, ??? ?????, ??? ? ?? ???? ??????? ???????, ??? ?? ??? ???? ?????, ??? ?????? ????????, ?? ??? ????????? ????????
Photius Theol., Scr. Eccl. et Lexicogr., Lexicon (?—?).
?????· ????? n ?? ??????? <????????> Ab ??? ?? ?? ??? ????????? ?????????????? ??????? (Lyc. ap. Harp.) ?????????? ?? ??? ??? ?????? ?????? ???????? ????? ??? ???????
Hesychius Lexicogr., Lexicon (?—?).
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George C. K.
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Hmm. That's Greek to me, as they say.
Would you please translate for the myriad of us who don't read Greek?
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Quote:?????· ?? ?? ??? ????????? ???????. ??? ??????, ??? ?????, ??? ? ?? ???? ??????? ???????, ??? ?? ??? ???? ?????, ??? ?????? ????????, ?? ??? ????????? ????????
Photius Theol., Scr. Eccl. et Lexicogr., Lexicon (?—?).
?????· ????? n ?? ??????? <????????> Ab ??? ?? ?? ??? ????????? ?????????????? ??????? (Lyc. ap. Harp.) ?????????? ?? ??? ??? ?????? ?????? ???????? ????? ??? ???????
Hesychius Lexicogr., Lexicon (?—?).
Aegis; net made of "crowns", and weaving, and armor, and the hollow of pine trees, and the weapn of Zeus, and the whirling of the wind that is also called storm
Photius Theol., Scr. Eccl. et Lexicogr., Lexicon (?—?).
Aegis; weapon the from goat <skin> and the net made of round circles <stemma; round circle or crown>(Lyc. ap. Harp.)
Nymphopdorous says that the armor is called aegis by the Spartans Hesychius Lexicogr., Lexicon (?—?)
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