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11-06-2002, 06:24 PM

Conal: 
The sica took many forms over its long history. About the only consistent features were that it was curved and it was single-edged. Early examples in sculpture show blades that appear to be from about 25cm to 50cm in length, some with a very slight curve, others with a very pronounced curve, like a large jambiyah. The famous sculpture of a thraex being pounced upon by a lion is of the latter description. 
In the first century the curvature became more pronounced and often took the form of an angle rather than a curve. It also seems to have grown from dagger to sword length. The grave stele of the 3rd century thraex Antonius Exochus shows his sica on the frame of the carving as if it was mounted on a wall at home, complete with little mounting-clips carved as well. With this amount of detail, it's fair to assume that the proportions are accurate too. Judging by the handle size, the blade of this weapon appears to be about 55cm or so, easily as big as a military gladius. 
These swords look strange and clumsy to us, but they were in use for a long time and there must have been some technique to their use. The extreme curve or angle would make for a gorily effective push-cut, and it may also have been handy for reaching around the opponent's larger shield.

11-07-2002, 09:42 AM

I want to add that Junkelmann's reconstructions are pretty good. If anything I would have liked to see the fore end curved slightly, making the blade shaped a bit like a "tick mark", with the fore end curved forwards. Roman images of thraeces show the sword with this strange blade form quite often. Images of "sicae" with dead straight fore ends are comparatively rare. 
 
Susan

11-07-2002, 05:29 PM

John 
 
I am not convinced by the proportions on the grave as they do not "feel right " ... an emotional response... like a Mainz blade looks right , this one doesn't. I would be happier if it were more boomerang in proportion. The hilt just does not ring true ... when scribbling possibilities i always end up with an Arab/SS dagger type hilt but then I am being over influenced by Islamic blades !!! The wooden sword hilt looks better ... the example shown in the Osprey book which started this thread . 
 
Suzy, 
 
Your comments have intrigued me. There is an illustration which pops up showing a small bucket type covering for the hand and a 90 degree bend and a flick at the tip of the blade ... is that what you mean ? I had seen this as a dockers hook affair used to pull at the shield, helmet etc. I hadn't thought of it as a sica but a new type in place of the sica which I prefer to think of as an elegant curve. Can we have a separate name for the new/different type ? 
 
as an aside I have a hideous article from Militarty Illustrated showing a Thraex with a Secutor helment, a round shield and a sicle bladed sword, the maneca on the shield are etc etc !!!

11-07-2002, 08:32 PM

Conal: 
I think I know the picture you're referring to. Unfortunately, like the Scaurus monument, the original is long gone and all we have are these 18th century drawings. The original was on the arena wall of the amphitheater of Pompeii and after it was excavated the paintings were just left to weather away. We don't know what condition it was in when copied, so we don't know how much was the artist's imagination at work. He may have misdrawn the sica, or maybe a damaged weapon was intended. It looks like it was thrust too hard against a shield.

11-08-2002, 11:59 AM

I don't mean that drawing. I just mean that many 
images (mosaics, reliefs and figurines) of thraeces 
distinctly show the fore end of the sabre curved slightly and not straight. This is quite common. For an example, look closely at the thraeces on the Zliten mosaic. 
 
Susan

11-08-2002, 12:34 PM

Suzy, 
 
I am glad you have mentioned this as it is something I have seen but not given much noticed to before & now gives me something to play with. I will be scouring through my books & illustrations !!!! 
 
As you have the Junkelmann book can I be cheeky and ask you about a helmet which is possibly a transitional type. It has no brim but a large-ish neck guard with the forehead coming down to a point just above the nose. The cheek guards are quite large and seem tucked into the helmet rather than attached to the rim. Sorry I dont have my book here or I would say the page number. 
 
What is the provenance of this piece ?

11-08-2002, 01:53 PM

I know the ones you mean. Their provenance is stated to be Herculaneum and they are [or were] displayed in the Museo Archeologico Nazionale in Naples along with the gladiatorial stuff from Pompeii. Opinions differ as to whether they were meant to be actually worn or not. When I saw them for real I thought they looked truly vile, but some think that with a crest attached they look OK. There is confusion about the size of them. Junkelmann states that they measure 30 or so cm from front to back, which would make them too big to be worn, but others say that this measurement includes the neck guard. I would have to go to Naples again and look for myself or find a better catalogue description of them before I would be convinced. I do recall that they "looked" very oversized though. They may or may not indeed be "transitional" gladiatorial helmets. Your guess is as good as anyone else's in this case. There is certainly good evidence for similar such open faced helmets being worn by gladiators at the turn of the first century BC and earlier. 
 
Susan

11-08-2002, 06:07 PM

sica: 
The sica with the curved forward section is one of several variants. I have a practice-sica of this design. It was by experimenting with it that I figured out how effective it would be with a push-cut. It's rather ineffective for the conventional draw-cut; the curvature is too extreme. 
the helmet: 
Suzy, I think the helmet Conal is referring to is the one on p. 71 of the Junkelmann book, ill. 99. It's from Pompeii and looks quite screwy. The blurb classifies it as "Decorationshelm." I presume this was part of a trophy of arms or other sculptural representation, never intended to be worn. 
Speaking of helms, I would dearly love to see one of the eastern helms found; the sort you see on monuments with Greek inscriptions from the eastern empire. They differed in construction from the familiar western helmets, with neckguards coming out from beneath the skull of the helmet, often depicted as grotesquely large, etc. Gladiatorial practices, pairings and equipment took different directions in the Greek east and I wish someone would translate "Gladiateurs dans l'orient Grec." 
By the way, are the three of us the only ones still looking into this thread? Let's get some other thoughts going here.

11-10-2002, 01:19 PM

Helmet provenance: 
I understand that the original published provenance of these is in fact Herculaneum. Junkelmann asserts that all the Herculaneum provenances are false and should really be Pompeii. He gives no really convincing reason to back up that assertion, however. Or do you perhaps have any more information on this? 
 
The thread: 
I believe that discussion of gladiatorial topics on this board is frowned upon since it is not regarded as "military". 
 
Translations: 
Regarding "Gladiateurs..." I would already be happy enough if someone just reprinted it! 
 
 
Also I take back what I said about the curving front end of the thracian sword. Looking through my sources again I find that I was mistaken in believing that blades of this form were particularly common. They did exist indeed, but never seem to have overshadowed the other forms (at least in the evidence that has come down to us). 
 
Susan

11-10-2002, 08:42 PM

The provenance of ancient finds, unless they are discovered and published by real archaeologists, is always doubtful. Prior to the 20th century most archaeology was just treasure-hunting and if you dug something up on someone's property, it was only prudent to claim you found it somewhere else. In some countries anything discovered beneath the ground, from buried treasure to metal ore, automatically belongs to the state or the crown. Add to that the fact that plenty of unauthorized excavation goes on right now and that, in Italy, it's not too well policed, and it's pretty much a crapshoot trying to figure out where a particular item came from. 
Pompeii was buried under ash and anyone with a shovel could dig there before it was closed off, but Herculaneum filled up with mud, which is much harder to dig. Plus, there's a modern city on top of it, so it's been far easier to control who gets into Herculaneum. I don't know of any evidence that there was a ludus there, but for that matter the "barracks" in Pompeii may not have been a ludus, either. Of course, there was nothing to prevent fight fans from collecting armor (Petronius even mentions a slave who has bought himself a full Thracian rig.) And free gladiators could have lived there and kept their armor at home, so gladiatorial finds are not out of the question. It was in Campania, after all, and Campania was to gladiators what Estramadura is to bullfighting.

Gashford · 11-11-2002, 10:10 AM

Hello all 
 
Don't worry about this running as a gladiator thread at the moment (I might be biased, but there you go). It has been kicked off from a discussion about a gladiatorial book review so I am happy to let it run for a while yet. 
 
About the sica, in our tests we have found exactly what John has. The sica is a great weapon for a pulling draw across the back or back of the arms of the opponent. When hold the scutum in against your body it is almost impossible to be cut, however if the opponent is armed with a sica they can almost draw against you with impunity if you hold the shield in this manner. There are a lot of points about this, but the thread would be too long, but in general the above holds true, the sica does indeed seem to have been a horribly crafty variation of weapon. 
 
Graham

11-11-2002, 04:41 PM

Graham: 
Thanks for the affirmation. I've always held that the Thracian had to have a very aggressive fighting style: he had to get in very close to do any damage, and hence his heavier armor. The murmillo could use a stolid and defensive style, letting the Thracian wear himself down with the fury of his attack. A figure on the Zliten mosaic(Junkelmann p. 64, ill. 89) shows a Thracian blocking high, stepping in and cutting his opponent on the thigh, a very adroit move. The cut seems to be on the outer thigh, but the fire-hose volume of blood pouring out suggests a severed femoral artery, which necessitates a cut to the inner thigh. (Junkelmann says it's the right thigh, but the left may be intended, in which case it's the inner thigh being cut.) 
And thanks for supporting a gladiator thread, too. We gladiator buffs have been crying out in the wilderness here (a weird metaphor, I admit.)

11-13-2002, 02:02 PM

Hi 
 
Thanks for not kicking us off !!! 
 
The Retiarius on the Zliten has been cut in the outer calf .. the blood is spouting well away from the leg ... were they just doing it for effect ? 
 
regards 
 
Conal

11-14-2002, 03:26 PM

What intrigues me is how a man with a dagger-sized sword and encumbered by a large scutum could hit a retiarius on the calf at all. Either it's an exaggerration, or the Romans expected tremendously high standard of swordsmanship from their gladiators.

Gashford · 11-14-2002, 04:00 PM

Hello all, 
 
We are running a little adrift from the main idea of this thread, but it is gladiatorial after all and the thread was started in this vein (just look at the twists and turns of the Tunic debate!). 
 
The move to cut the lower leg isn't that difficult when armed with a scutum. If you look at my picture under my name on the left you will see that in the scene I have bound the weapons and body of my opponent (John Morgan) leaving his entire side open which allows me to attack with impunity his entire left hand side. This sort of technique is employed, even easier, against a long weapon such as a trident or spear. 
 
Given that the fighters may either, not want to kill one another if they can avoid it, be trying to extend the combat for effect or just unlucky the shot to the leg could be actually committed. Also, failing that the artist might just be trying to show a dramatic moment of decision in the fight. 
 
Hope this helps in some way. 
 
Graham

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