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11-15-2002, 05:39 PM

Getting back to the book briefly ... the stilleto/epee blade. 
 
Is it curved by design or just bent ? Is it a sica ?

11-16-2002, 02:26 AM

I'm puzzled by that piece myself. I've never seen it published anywhere and have no descriptions. Is the blade flattened? Ridged? Diamond sectioned? Is it single- or double-edged? It would seem very difficult to bend the tip upward like that without a lot of lateral bending as well. Without detailed description it's hard to tell whether it's a weapon or just a farm implement. All I can say is that it sort of looks like a sica. I'd like to see more information on it. 
The wooden "sica" on the page opposite could have acquired that curvature through warping after centuries in the mud. It's a practice sword of some sort, maybe a sica, maybe a gladius.

Gashford · 11-16-2002, 02:33 PM

Hello all 
 
I have seen the piece in the British Museum expo on gladiators that was done in 2000 (I thionk it was 2000). 
 
It was tucked away in a corner on the final leg of the expo. If I recall correctly the caption said something along the lines of 'Found in Gladiator Barracks in Pompeii, exact use unsure.' It was something like that, but I may have it completly wrong. 
 
Anyway, I didn't spend much time on the item, annoyingly. as it was the first time I had seen lots of gladiatorial pieces together and my attanetion was else where. 
 
It struck me that the item was bent after it was discarded and it appears to have lost the end, the bend on the original is more link a kink than a bend. It was in too poorer condition to be able to see what shape it was originally. It struck me that it was an epee or very early equivalient. 
 
Looking at many mosaics of weapons occasionally a weapon is shown as a single tessari (sp?) wide image. We are told that the mosaicist struggled with the depiction of the weopon, but in some cases the same artist has depicted knots and tie cords holding on equipment, perhaps this weapon was used infrequently but often enough. 
 
We have one in our display, actually a modern epee converted, but fighting against it is a nightmare, particularly if the other person knows how to use a shield well. 
 
The image in the book does not really do the original piece justice, unfortunatly like many of the images in the book I think a more traditional archaelogical illustration technique would have been better - but that is just my thought. 
 
All the best 
 
Graham

11-16-2002, 03:37 PM

I'd love to see any sort of documentation, plus maybe some decent photos of this piece. If it's really from the gladiator barracks at Pompeii, and if as Graham says it was originally straight, then what we have here is almost certainly the straight, slender sword the hoplomachus carried behind his shield as a backup for his lance. The small dimensions of the hilt would make this more feasible. I would like to see if it had a provision for that thong loop we so often see in gladiatorial depictions. It's too small for a wrist-loop and is always depicted just dangling. I suspect that this loop was used for hanging the weapon from a peg in the arsenal. Swords are never shown worn is a sheath by a gladiator, and I suspect that they never had sheaths in the first place. They were probably stored on racks and passed out to the fighters in the arena after the probatio armorum. This is a unique piece that needs greater publication. Any idea where its permanent home is?

Gashford · 11-16-2002, 05:41 PM

John 
 
I think that the original piece is in the British Museum, but I have no idea about how to approach them to get a look at anything beyond that which is shown in any specific expo ... any ideas. 
 
A quick question as well about the drawings in the Osprey book. The normal archaeological illustration that are seen, normally made with dots, are these a technical way that archaeological illustrators are taught to draw? 
 
My thanks 
 
Graham

11-18-2002, 01:24 PM

Hi John, 
 
Just drop them a line .... its our stuff anyway !!?? I wrote to them a while ago asking for details of publications which may include Gladiatorial stuff & got quite a good reply. 
 
What's a Tessari ??

11-18-2002, 02:24 PM

Conal: 
Graham saw it in the BM, but a lot of the pieces in that exhibit were on loan from other museums,so I'd like to know which one has it as part of its permanent collection. That's the one that will have the documentation, if any. 
A tessarius (pl. tessarae)is a single piece used in mosaic inlay. this brings up yet another sword never seen in archaeological finds: the one used by the type of gladiator Junkelmann identifies as "essedarius" but which I think, at least in Republican times, is called the "Gaul." They fight with virtually no armor, a big, oval shield and a short sword. In later times the helmet was round, crestless and enclosed like the secutor's but with side-plumes. They were always paired against one another. On the Zliten mosaic a pair are shown with swords that look square-tipped. I thought this was because the swords were only a single tessarius wide, but Marcus pointed out that other depictions show their swords with round or square points. Very odd.

11-19-2002, 02:03 PM

Hi John , 
 
If these chaps are in fact Gaulish in origin the flat tipped sword was fashionable in Gaul in 1st century BC when they are likely to have originated. Maybe it was a bit longer for this type of Gladiator. I would like to see the other illustrations Junkelmann refers to .. any ideas where/ what books etc ? 
 
I have seen an illustration, which I cant paste here, of a Hoplomachus with a manica on each arm , a spear in the right and what looks like a sword in the left. Its from a floor mosaic. 
 
The mosaic also appears in Junklemanns book but this section has not been blown up. Is this seen often ? 
 
Regards 
 
Conal

11-19-2002, 06:30 PM

For example of the round- or square-ipped sword, see Junkelmann p. 116, ill 174, the Dyrrhachium relief (also to be seen in Osprey "Republican Roman Army" p. 24) Junkelmann p. 118 ill. 179 
The sword is often shown held almost upright, rather than the usual point-to-the-enemy hold, suggesting to me that it was wielded in short chops, rather like a small machete. At least this would explain why this type was always matched within the same category. It would have put him at a severe disadvantage to fight an opponent whose sword had both a point and an edge. 
It should be noted that sometimes the "Gaul" seems to be using a pointed sword, so the pointless type may not always have been used. 
In the floor mosaic you refer to the hoplomachus is wearing only one manica but he has lost his shield, I don't make out a sword, but he usually carried one as a backup. Apparently he is left-handed. He may have elected to fight without the shield or he may be wounded in one arm. 
Where's Suzy?

11-19-2002, 06:34 PM

A further thought occurs to me. In this mosaic the hoplo's opponent is a Thracian. Usually, the hoplo was matched with a murmillo, in which case his armament was round shield, spear and straight backup sword. When fighting another small-shield fighter like a Thracian, he usualy fights with the sword alone. Maybe, in this hoplomachus-Thracian match, the hoplo's shield was eliminated instead to even the odds. Fascinating stuff.

11-20-2002, 10:33 AM

Suzy's here. Been away on business for a while. 
 
I have a few cents worth to contribute to your interesting discussion: 
 
1. I do not believe that the "epee" was found in Pompeii. IIRC (and I'll check up as soon as I get access to my "library") this was actually found in one of the German frontier forts. 
 
2. The dot technique is a common method for archaeological illustration. 
 
3. A small tile in a mosaic is called a tessera (pl tesserae). 
 
4. There is consistent evidence of a type of gladiator using an oval shield and a blunt tipped sword. Based on their weapons' similarity with Celtic weapons and given the documented existence of a type called "Gallus" and one called "essedarius" (which implies something to do with chariots, although no known image of a chariot-fighting gladiator is extant) this type is assigned some sort of Celtic symbolism. They are shown with various helmet types through the centuries. 
 
5. Graham, why exactly is the thin "epee" sword such a nightmare to fight against? 
 
Susan

11-21-2002, 10:46 AM

Sure enough, the all-metal "epee" "sword" is not from Pompeii. It was actually found in 1971 in Augst in Switzerland in a Roman private house dating from the late 2nd to early 3rd Century. The gladiatorial connection is circumstantial and is based on the fact that a mosaic showing gladiatorial scenes was found in the same building. Presumably the museum at Augst might be a good place to start: 
 
www.baselland.ch/docs/kul...main-d.htm 
 
RÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¶merstadt Augusta Raurica, 
Giebenacherstrasse 17, 
CH-4302 Augst, 
Tel. ++41/61/816 22 22, 
Fax ++41/61/ 816 22 61, 
e-mail [email protected] . 
 
Anyway, here's a challenging thought. I bet it isn't a sword, at all. It is nearly 75 cm long (even with the end apparently missing). I bet it's a roasting spit, or a fire poker or a broken off bit of furniture or something. 
 
Susan

Gashford · 11-22-2002, 12:22 PM

Suzy 
 
It appears that my IIRC should have been IIRI (If I Recall Incorrectly!) Thanks for putting me straight. 
 
Your comments on it being a roasting spit are interesting and not without merit, not knwoing anything about the piece out of the context of the BM gladiator expo I suppose it could be just about anything that is pointy ... an early magic wand perhaps. 
 
I do not have the osprey book to hand, what does the book place it as, if you let me know I will write to the author and ask his sources. 
 
Finally, in our fights with the 'roasting spit' epee it is very hard to fight against because if the speed the person can attack with it, the fact that face guards almost invite the blade into the face etc ... a very daunting piece of kitchen cutlery to come up against, this maybe a reason that spartacus did so well. 
 
Graham 
 
PS: Just to let this gladiator thread ride in the reviews forum, can we try and relate things back to the book in our threads. Ta!

11-22-2002, 01:40 PM

Graham, 
 
I don't have the book to hand either but I do not recall that he relates it as anything other than a curvy sword. He gives no references or provenance for it at all. It might be interesting to find out from him where he got or copied the image from, though. 
 
Susan

11-22-2002, 03:06 PM

I have the book handy. The illo only says "Author's illistration" but the text says: "A remarkable curve-bladed weapon made of iron is preserved in the Romersmuseum, Augst, Switzerland and it is generally believed to be of gladiatorial origin." p. 43 
So that's where it is. In the paragraph before he says that the blade shape is described as "Danubian" or "Etruscan," depending on curvature. Has anyone else heard of this terminology? I know of the Etruscan terra-cotta sculpture of a man in hoplite equipment holding a strange, jambiyah-curved knife, and of course the falx/rhompaia weapon was curved. Are these where the terms came from?

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