Ancient Roman military maneuvers maniples (Manipulum)

[Cacaius]

Dear John

I do my best to use (and talk about) latin from 1 c. AD in my camp.

I know that there are many changes in latin between medieval times and early empire.

Not only ! ... There are already a lot of changes between 1st ... 3rd .. and 6th century AD in latin.

One difference is already shown in this drill book.

"ad senestra" is proper for late empire when in 1st century we find correct form "ad sinistra"


This book its quite interesting :

The regional diversification of Latin, 200 BC-AD 600

http://books.google.com/books?id=yu9zSR ... &q&f=false

[jkaler48]

Dear John

I do my best to use (and talk about) latin from 1 c. AD in my camp.

I know that there are many changes in latin between medieval times and early empire.

Not only ! ... There are already a lot of changes between 1st ... 3rd .. and 6th century AD in latin.

One difference is already shown in this drill book.

"ad senestra" is proper for late empire when in 1st century we find correct form "ad sinistra"


This book its quite interesting :

The regional diversification of Latin, 200 BC-AD 600

http://books.google.com/books?id=yu9zSR ... &q&f=false

It is great that you have been able to research and use Latin that is as close as possible to 1st Century AD Latin. Of course it is mostly the more formal written texts that have survived and less written material from the lower classes. Even today most languages are written differently from what is spoken and there are regional and class variations. Is there a textbook that covers just 1st Century AD Latin and has an analysis of its' probable spoken form?

[M. Demetrius]

http://www.ludusmilitis.org/index.php

Try this link for finding the Tactica, and other discussions. You'll have to register, but we've edited things to eliminate the need for the legal disclaimer.

[jkaler48]

As promised here are the Draft Standard signals copied from the Advanced tactics section of LM (which is back up)

Signals with the Standard: (Draft)(Proposed)(Tentative)

In General the Standard will repeat some of the critical commands of the Centurio.

Some Standard Signals will have corresponding hand and arm signals and Cornu Calls. The "Attention to Orders" standard signal accompanies other verbal and Cornu commands which allows the troops to see that the Cornu call or verbal order is indeed for their unit.

Attention to Orders: Standard is Raised and Lowered

Forward March: Standard is moved in the direction of march.

Charge: Standard is raised and lowered rapidly until the last rank forward of the standard is in motion

Facing movements; Standard is turned in the direction of the movement.

Halt: From the march Standard is Raised and Lowered

Rally: Standard is faced towards the enemy and orbited at the top.

Recall: Standard is faced away from the Century and orbited at the top.

[Robert Vermaat]

Hi Cezary,

There are already a lot of changes between 1st ... 3rd .. and 6th century AD in latin.
One difference is already shown in this drill book.
"ad senestra" is proper for late empire when in 1st century we find correct form "ad sinistra"

Of course! But in the Dutch army we give orders in archaic language too, which everybody understands completely. The command 'geef acht' (attention!) is at best 19th-century Dutch, or even older, and no-one would ever use it in a sentence. Other commands are shorthened: 'plaats rust' (at ease!) and would be grammatical nonsense.
It's as you said earlier, as long as the troops understand what they have to do, it's not important whether the command is grammatically correct or not. I'm all for it that we disconnect Latin orders from Latin grammar.

[Mark Graef]

Cacaivs,

Thank you for your detailed explanation of your methods and rationale for commands. I think it is great when a reenactment unit makes an extra effort to speak the language of the soldiers they are portraying; too many reenactment groups and individuals place too little emphasis on this aspect of their total impressions.

I have no doubt that your methods work well within your unit — your milites know what you mean, when you say it. Also, you have many options. A centurio obviously gave orders, directives, and instructions all day long, not just during the small percentage of time spent on the drill field. Drill commands can be put in a drill manual, but no manual of phrases could cover all possibilities for giving orders off the field.

I have some questions, though, about how things work when your group gets together with others at large gatherings. I was under the impression that in Europe many units use different sets of commands, and that not all of them do drill the same way, even though there are many elements in common. I've seen the command lists for the Ermine Street Guard, Legio X Gemina, and the one in Marcus Junkelmann's Legionen des Augustus, which I have heard some units use. Now, my information may be old, and perhaps things have changed on the other side of the Atlantic, but there may always be new research and experimentation which can change the status quo. For example, had you and your unit participated in the recent maneuvers by the 3 combined Italian groups (as shown in the video posted by Velite at the start of the thread) would everyone had been able to figure out what movements were meant by the Latin verbs and commands used? Or would it have helped to have known ahead of time what verbs were they were going to use for each evolution?

Or suppose you were invited to be the guest centurion and conduct drill at a gathering of different Roman units in Western Europe, and you neither studied what words they use, nor they yours, and you did as you mentioned:

When I want them to make spaces between ranks / files .. I shout "in agmina/ordinibus laxate"

Based on the varied uses of "laxate" that I have seen, some milites might simply adjust their interval slightly to the proper distance, others would double their intervals from close to open order, and others would stand at ease! Historians aren't in agreement as to exactly what Caesar meant in BG II 25 when he commanded "manipulos laxare," why should reenactors? (Though I'm pretty sure he didn't mean "relax".)

If the European reenactors have found a way to avoid this problem, many of us over here would be interested in how that was accomplished.

I cant teach them that "Deponite" means "turn as a wheel" .. because they all know this word. And in the camp I say many times .. "please deponite your gladii there" (of course in proper latin)

I wouldn't teach anyone either that "depone" or "deponite" means "wheel," because it doesn't. Depone/deponite in the LM manual means "set," "place," or "deploy." (A 1st Cent BC example of use from De Lingua Latina by Varro: "Pilani triarii quoque dicti, quod in acie tertio ordine extremi subsidio deponebantur.") I'm sure your guys could learn that this Latin verb (like most) can have a variety of uses in different contexts, that when in a formation, the front could be ordered to deponite or set on a flank, and in camp a gladius could commanded to be set in a tent using the same verb. I'm not saying that you need to do this, i just don't see why you could not teach them it if you wanted to.

p.s. by the way in my opinion "ad testudinem" its not correct form. Are you sure that romans will say in this way ?
I was always teached that "Ad" means direction

I was also taught this was one sense or use of "ad". But I was also taught that "ad" with a noun in the accusative case becomes an adverbial phrase. In that event the meaning can be "towards", "into", or "for the purpose of."

In this case "ad testudinem" means exactly ... go to the nearest ready made testudo and stay nearby

Given the above, it would seem that "ad testudinem" means (form) into a testudo, or (form) testudo-wise. The phrase being adverbial, the imperative verb is implied.

The best example I know of the use of "ad" + accusative case in a probable field command is in Vegetius III 14:
"Prima autem et secunda acies, cum ad spathas et ad pila, ut dicitur, uentum fuerit, totum sustinet bellum." (The first and second lines bear the brunt of the battle when it comes to what is called "to broadswords and javelins." [Milner translation]) I don't think ad spathas et ad pila was an order to run to the nearest supply of weapons, but rather a shorthand command to go to the position or formation for the purpose of fighting at close quarters with swords and pila.

CacaIvs, I hope I have explained my positions clearly without being too long winded. I look forward to discussing further aspects of drill and maneuvers, and getting tips on ways to use Latin in camp settings.