Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
RAT equivalent for 12th-13th Cent/Crusader?
#1
Is there a forum similar to RAT that covers 12th-13th century armor and garb? I'm mostly interested in domestic warfare on the European continent, but obviously it's impossible to ignore the Crusades when looking at this era. Curious to see what online resources are out there. And what are some groups that reenact this era?

Thanks in advance for any help.
Franklin Slaton
Semper Ubi Sub Ubi
Your mother wears caligae!
Reply
#2
You could try http://www.armourarchive.org
Frank
Vescere bracis meis!
Reply
#3
Oh, yes, definitely the Armour Archive! Some topics are SCA-centered, but there is a ton of good research there, and plenty of people who do living history besides SCA. There's even a section on "I Want to be..." which probably already has a summary of what you're looking for. Also have a look at MyArmoury,

http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/index.php

A little more weapon-focused whereas the Armour Archive is more armor-focused, so they go together pretty well.

And my own humble Midgard site may help,

http://www.larp.com/midgard/

Oh, and just so you know, moving from the Roman era to the middle ages is NOT evolution, ha! But have fun,

Matthew
Matthew Amt (Quintus)
Legio XX, USA
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.larp.com/legioxx/">http://www.larp.com/legioxx/
Reply
#4
During the period in question there was a good deal of development in terms of equipment. At the time of the First Crusade, clothing and equipment is likely to have been very similar to that used at the time of the Norman Conquest, with the average knight being equipped with a thigh or knee length hauberk with elbow length sleeves and possibly a mail hood (which in some cases may have acted in place of a helmet) with a ventail (worn over a padded aketon / gambeson), a four part helmet or spangenhelm (possibly sometimes with an aventail) and a long curving 'kite' shield with a pointed bottom and rounded upper edge. Very high ranking soldiers (earls and kings) would also be likely to wear mail calf length 'chauses' (mail greaves) and mail vambraces, held in place by lacing and probably also by 'points' on their aketons / gambesons.

By the middle of the twelfth century mail seems to have been about the same but more helmets seem to have been made in one piece by this time, again possibly with aventails in some cases. Again, mail hoods attached to hauberks would be common and with arming caps may often have been used in place of helmets. Chauses and vambraces were probably gradually becoming more common amongst the wealthier knights. Long surcoats, often sleeveless and split to the thigh at either the from and back or the sides seem to have been becoming widespread, probably as a result of Middle Eastern practices adopted by men who had fought in the Crusades filtering through. Shields seem to have been pretty much as described above but some may have started to become more straighter along their top edges. A very basic form of heraldry appears to have been developing around this time and was probably to be seen on the shields and standards of high ranking figures.

By the time of the Third Crusade, at the end of the twelfth century, new helmet types are seen alongside the conical spangenhelms and mail coifs, with flat topped helmets which were wider at the top than at the rim being popular and for some time it seems to have been common to see bars or face plates with vision slots attached to the fronts of helmets of all types to provide more protection than the older nasal bars would have. These seem to have been becoming common by the 1170s, By the time of the Third Crusade they were probably very common, although many helmets would still have been open faced, with or without nasals. Again, aventails were probably common. Kettle hats were probably starting to be worn by many foot soldiers by this time. By this time, many knights were wearing long sleeved mail, sometimes with mail 'mittens' attached which could hang free but which could be laced into position to protect the hand and wrist. Hauberks often seem to have been somewhat longer than before as well, although aketons seem to have been somewhat longer than the mail itself so the increase in the length of the mail may be an illusion. Mail chauses seem to have been common and sometimes seem to have reach to the thigh, presumably being supported by 'points' on aketons. These may have extended over the foot to enclose the shoe in some high ranking cases, although this might not be very practical if fighting on foot. Surcoats were probably a normal part of a knight's kit by this stage and some, especially those of the senior figures, would have displayed early heraldic designs. Most shields appear to have been flat topped by this time, although in other respects they were probably still similar to those in use in the mid eleventh century. By this stage many would feature heraldic designs.

As we move into the thirteenth century we would start to see the face plate on helmets being steadily extended around the helmet to produce the first enclosed helmets, although the earlier spangenhelms and mail coifs appear to have remained popular. As the century progressed we would also probably start to see the introduction of the first pieces of plate armour, these apparently being limited to elbow and knee cops, although the iron 'coat of plates' was probably developing around this time as well, if the evidence from Visby is anything to go by. It is very difficult to be sure about the development of torso armour as this is hidden by surcoats in contemporary depictions. By the end of the thirteenth century the enclosed helmet had probably developed into an early form of the 'great helm' commonly seen in fourteenth and early fifteenth century depictions. Shields may have started to become somewhat shorter by then and we would expect to see heraldic designs.

Throughout the period, many helmets may have been painted, both to avoid rust and to make them more distinctive.

I don't know so much about weapons of the period. Sword blades probably did not change much during this period but the hilt furniture would have. At the time of the First Crusade a straight guard and 'D' shaped pommel may still have been common but later than this I am not sure. Unfortunately I cannot tell you anything about scabbards of the period, apart from the fact that they seem to have been carried on waist belts. Axes may also have been in use by many knights for some, if not all, of the period in question and maces would often have been carried by senior figures, as much as a symbol of rank as also a very effective weapon.
Spears would have been very common and were used by both infantry and mounted men. At this time the cavalry spear had not developed into the later lance (which probably started to happen some time in the mid thirteenth century) and would have been used either overhand or couched under the arm.
Archers and crossbowmen were probably common in most armies, although the later long bow and heavier cross bow types would not have been known during the period of the Crusades.

Moving briefly to clothing, throughout much of the period clothing would not have changed very much and was probably mostly quite similar to that worn in the eleventh century, although over time it appears that tunics gradually became shorter, moving from about knee length in the eleventh century to closer to thigh length later on and some people may have worn shorter short sleeved overtunics over their long sleeved tunics later in the period, which may have been open at the front and done up with buttons or laces. Trousers and hose would have been close fitting and would be held up by drawstrings or belts and suspenders. All outer clothing would be made of wool and it would be as brightly coloured as available dyes would allow. In general we can assume that the wealthier would have more strongly dyed clothes, probably often adorned with embroidery. Cloaks would have been simple rectangular cloaks held in place with a pin. Annular or penannular designs would be good here as these types enjoyed a very long history. It would also be common for many people, especially peasants to wear hoods which included shoulder coverings. Gradually, over time, it became common for the point at the back of the hood to be steadily lengthened until by the late thirteenth century it was possible to wrap this around the neck as a sort of scarf. By this time, men of the evolving merchant class would often wear hoods in such a way that the opening for the face served as a hat band, with the shoulder covering of the hood resting over one shoulder and the long point wound loosely around the neck. Hats would also commonly have been worn, often being made of felt, but as hat styles changed much over time and I do not have any detailed knowledge of them I shall say no more about these. For the landed classes, as well as the merchant class which gradually developed in towns, it was also common to wear long robe-like garments when not engaged in rigorous activity. However these changed much over time and therefore I will not say anything more about them either. I will also steer clear of shoes. Shoes are well documented elsewhere for the period but again it is an area I know next to nothing about. Underclothes, where worn, would have been either of wool or linen.

Well, this has been rather a long post but I hope you can make sense of it and find it to be of some use as a starting point.

Crispvs
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers.  :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.romanarmy.net">www.romanarmy.net
Reply


Possibly Related Threads…
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Medieval jewellery - 13th-14th century BC??? Robert Vermaat 6 1,645 06-27-2007, 06:20 PM
Last Post: Gaius Julius Caesar

Forum Jump: