Roman Saddles and Usage

[Ron Andrea]

Forgive me if this has been covered before, but I recently read that, "As a substitute for the use of stirrups the horses, more particularly in Spain, were taught to kneel at the word of command, when their riders wished to mount them." From the context, I can not be sure whether the author meant this was a Roman practice or later. (See longer article at [url:tr864y8s]http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/secondary/SMIGRA*/Ephippium.html[/url]) Did Romans use this kneeling technique to mount?

I ask because L. Sprague De Camp's The Ancient Engineers reports that, contrary to what I thought, the Medes "bred horses for size until the horses were as big as modern riding horses." (p.65) And that these larger horses, by gift, theft or conquest were highly prized and spread throughout the ancient world. If so (and I'd be happy to hear that debunked) it reopens the question of how an armored warrior mounted such a large beast. Simply hopping on, as one would a smaller horse, seems unreliable. This kneeling technique might fill the (supposed) gap.

[jvrjenivs]

mmm, don't know. But I simply use a friends hand to help me get into the saddle. (they take one of my legs and when I jump they only have to help a little.

[Ron Andrea]

A time-honored--and effective--method.

[M. Demetrius]

Unless you have a brawny slave on all fours to step up onto... :lol:

[Vindex]

Teaching a horse to kneel is a very simple thing to do and, with younger horses, not too much of a strain on their joints and back to make such a thing comfortable for them to do.

It would make stepping across the saddle far easier than trying to swing up into the saddle from the ground when fully armed. The main concern I would have with a modern horseman's head on is the damage to the horse's back as it gets up again with armoured man in place...but wer're talking about pretty solidly built horses I believe and nothing as fine as a thoroughbred.

I expect that there will be some oppostion to this idea, but it is a theory I am working on in some experimental reseach as I am an advocate for larger horses in the ancient world than some would believe (but NOT over 15hh so please don't shoot me too early). I have mentioned this before in other threads where you can be too tall for a small horse to balance properly to make you an effective fighter from the saddle.

Interesting references though...will go and do some digging - thanks Ron

[Sean Manning]

Its earlier, but Xenophon mentions getting a leg up from your servant, and recommends that you learn to vault onto your horse's back.

[M. Demetrius]

...and as we all have seen quoted lots of times, Vegetius De Res Militaris likewise talks about vaulting being an essential skill. If it's heavy for a horse to stand, imagine the sudden shock of an armored man flopping down into the saddle after vaulting!

And lacking a proper groin guard, er, the horseman might get an unpleasant thump. :roll: :!:

[Vindex]

...and as we all have seen quoted lots of times, Vegetius De Res Militaris likewise talks about vaulting being an essential skill. If it's heavy for a horse to stand, imagine the sudden shock of an armored man flopping down into the saddle after vaulting!

And lacking a proper groin guard, er, the horseman might get an unpleasant thump. :roll: :!:

Indeed. VAulting on is bad enough even if it is just a gentle swing of the leg over the horse's back...which is where my views on the saddles may begin to change. It is hard enough getting on the horse without having to get your leg over the horn on the back of the saddle. Hence my reason for buying one of the saddles John Conyard has been so excellent at producing...although he may not thank me for my views after I have experimented a bit more and done more research!

[Ron Andrea]

True, perhaps, but the Romans had to contend with what they had. Depending on the height of the rear horns, swinging your leg over as you hopped up might be quite a trick (assuming there's no stone or minion handy).

[Crispvs]

According to the stretch marks on the Carlisle saddle leathers, the saddle frame was built in such a way that the soldier's groin would have landed between the bars of the frame rather than against them, although the way the leather had stretched also strongly suggested that the saddles were not padded. Still the same for the horse though I suppose.

Crispvs

[Forty-One]

Unless you have a brawny slave on all fours to step up onto... :lol:

Or indeed a handy Roman emperor. See Lactantius ("De mortibus persecutorum" V, 3) about the legend of Persian king Shapur using Emperor Valentinian as a mounting step.

One of my abiding memories of the Durham University "day school" about the Roman cavalry (circa 1985) was David J. Breeze running up and vaulting onto a wooden horse into Peter Connolly's newly unveiled saddle.

[Crispvs]

I think David Breeze must have been a slimmer man then than he is now. :lol:

Crispvs

[M. Demetrius]

I think David Breeze must have been a slimmer man then than he is now.

Ha ha! Like the rest of us, eh?

the soldier's groin would have landed between the bars

SHOULD have, at least. It took a while to teach that skill, if Vegetius is correct, so maybe some of the soldiers walked funny once in a while.... :lol: :roll: Ouch.

I think Ron is right, they used what they had because it's what they had. Remember, too, that the average soldier in that day was in much better physical condition than many of us are today. At least that applies to myself.

[Vindex]

...and as we all have seen quoted lots of times, Vegetius De Res Militaris likewise talks about vaulting being an essential skill. If it's heavy for a horse to stand, imagine the sudden shock of an armored man flopping down into the saddle after vaulting!

And lacking a proper groin guard, er, the horseman might get an unpleasant thump. :roll: :!:

Thought some of you may be intersted in seeing this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRPQIIZkyY8

I know he isn't wearing any armour but I offer it as an example of how light and controlled you can be when getting on a horse.

The first one would be virtually imnpossible on a saddle with rear horns.

The second one would be possible with the Connolly designed saddle and would certainly cover Vegetius' vaulting.

My favourite are the last two, and I think this would be manageable with horns on the front of the saddle, but not a raised back.

I also offer you these for interest's sake on different methods of getting on your mount. Not all of them are suitable for armoured cavalryman, but it is to show the art of the possible with well trained horses.

Shows the horse lying down, but also how easy it is to get them to kneel:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qkDSEU0_Ao

Note how unconcerned the horse is during this next one...except for the end when the girl stands up...the horse's back response is NOT good in my opinion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8eb76q6MRc

[John Conyard]

Take a look at the Greek cavalry thread.

This was messing around last spring. The BBQ was fired up and we may have had a drink....

http://s749.photobucket.com/albums/xx13 ... 4-1453.flv

http://s749.photobucket.com/albums/xx13 ... 4-1455.flv

http://s749.photobucket.com/albums/xx13 ... 4-1456.flv

http://s749.photobucket.com/albums/xx13 ... 4-1457.flv

If I vaulted Indian style on to Hal we wouldn't stop until we hit the north sea

The cantle from Carlisle suggested a suspended seat, from front to rear, as with our steppe saddle. Men and women sit a horse differently anyway. But I do like McCellan's, they have a a cut out in the right place

I suspect the motion of the horse makes it easier to mount when it is moving.