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03-28-2003, 12:22 AM

Hi Conn, thank you for your response to my post. re the relationship with the girl, my point was poorly phrased and gave the wrong impression. 
 
It was not the fact that she was regarded as sexually attractive, but the fact that Caesar in particular respected her feelings. In the real world I suggest that young girl slaves like her would have been the target of constant sexual aggression from the young males in the household. A rapists paradise. 
 
Compare the treatment in modern times of female slaves in labour camps in the USSR and Nazi Germany. 
 
Colin

03-28-2003, 11:46 AM

Interesting point, about the slave girls, Colin. In representing a brutal culture, I did find a conflict between the 'reality' and presenting Julius as a heroic figure. I think it's important to create a likeable character, which can be difficult if he has people crucified, or behaves badly (by modern standards) towards slavegirls. It is a tricky balance. I think as a general rule, that it's wrong to impose modern morals on history - to have characters filled with guilt over something they would be unlikely to have questioned or thought about, for instance. However, where there's leeway, as with Caesar's unknown and unknowable relationship with a particular slave girl, I'd rather not make him that unpleasant, though other characters don't need that 'protection'. 
 
In book two, JC is directly involved in crucifixions, complete with nails and it was very tricky to have him come out of it as a likeable character. 
 
As for the library at Alexandria, I'll go back to my sources, John before I write the scenes. That all takes place in book4, which I only have as synopsis at the moment. Looking forward to writing it though. 
 
Conn

**richsc** · 03-29-2003, 03:40 AM

I am so glad to find other Flashman fans! I have all the books, though I have yet to read Tom Brown's School Days (did see a part of the movie though). Alas, I am not sure we will ever see the manuscript with Flashman at Gettysburg, but we can hope. My guess is that Armistead found out Flashman was galloping his wife, and was chasing him in front of Picket's charge with his sword. 
 
I seem to remember GMF also wrote the screen play to a Beatle's movie, Hard Day's Night, did he not? 
 
Richard Campbell, Legio XX

03-29-2003, 10:25 AM

I can't get my copy of GMF's autobiog back from my father, so can't be sure, but I thought Alun Owen wrote the screenplay for Hard Day's Night. 
 
I don't think I've ever met anyone who has read Flashman and not loved them. I always enjoyed the historical notes at the back as much as the main story. I heard there is going to be one more, but I don't know for sure. 
 
Conn

**richsc** · 03-29-2003, 11:20 AM

I was wrong; it was the "Three Musketeers" I was thinking of, the 1974 version. Richard Campbell, Legio XX

03-30-2003, 08:24 AM

Hi again Conn, 
 
Again, one last time on this subject, the status of Roman slaves was much lower than in the ante bellum Confederacy. 
 
For instance the testimony of slaves could only be accepted if made under torture, and if a slave killed his or her owner, all the slaves of the household were condemned to death without appeal. It was only in Constantine's time that the right of an owner to kill or maim his human property on a whim was restricted. 
 
The participants in the ludi were of course mainly slaves, and as is common knowledge were not only compelled to fight as gladiators but also subjected to elaborate and excruciating deaths in set-piece entertainment scenes. A slave could be consigned to the ludi for any reason or no reason at all. 
 
In Pompeii I believe, an advertisement for a firm specialising in torture and crucifixion of slaves for a set scale of charges has been found. 
 
The life of slaves in the Empire and Late Republic must have been a hell on earth, with the odd Greek slave tutor or lady's companion vastly outnumbered by the slaves in the great latifundia with their underground ergastola slave quarters. Sicily's population was largely slave and regularly the scene of huge servile revolts. 
 
The only novel that I have read, which appears to truly show Roman slavery as it was, is Howard Fast's "Spartacus". 
 
Even the existence of educated "freedmen" in the higher levels of Roman administration was the exception that proved the rule. They were always despised and treated as inferiors, very much the clients of former owners who still controlled their lives in many ways. 
 
With respect, I suggest that any novel which fails to accurately portray this aspect of Roman civilisation must fail at least in part. 
 
Colin

rekirts · 03-30-2003, 09:44 PM

Colin, 
 
I think you are making some sweeping generalizations, and that in stating that "the life of slaves in the Empire and Late Republic must have been hell on earth," you are missing a whole other aspect of the picture. 
 
To begin with let me quote from a translation of a letter Cicero wrote to his slave, Tiro, in November, 50 BCE: 
 
"From Tullius to his dear Tiro best greetings, also from Marcus and my brother Qunitus and Quintus junior. 
I read your letter with varying feelings. The first page upset me badly, the second brought me round a little. So now, if not before, I am clear that until your health is quite restored you should not venture upon travel either by land or water. I shall see you soon enough if I see you thoroughly strong again. " 
 
Cicero goes on to discuss the qualifications of the doctor caring for Tiro and then says, "One thing, my dear Tiro, I do beg of you: don't consider money at all where whatever you say. I imagine the doctor ought to be given something to make him more interested in your case. 
Your services to me are beyond count--in my home and out of it, in Rome and abroad, in private affairs and public, in my studies and literary work. You will cap them all if I see you your own man again, as I hope I shall." 
 
The letter continues in much the same vein, advising Tiro not to travel until he is completely well and ending, "Goodbye, my dear Tiro, goodbye and fondest good wishes. Lepta sends you his, so do we all. Goodbye." 
 
There are several letters from Cicero to Tiro which show similar affection and respect. 
 
In "Slavery in the Roman Empire" R. H. Barrow says, "The kindliness of Pliny [the Younger] towards his staff is well known." and later: 
"Pliny's account of his treatement of his slaves is sometimes regarded as so much in advance of general or even occasional practice as to be valueless as evidence. There is no reason for this attitude. Pliny was a liberal benefactor to his native town: he endowed charities for children; he built schools and libraries; [etc.]...Private munificence, often at personal sacrifice, is a commonplace of the inscriptions, and a due proportion of it was inspired by genuine humanity. If, then, other phases of Pliny's character are admittedly representative of a common tendency, there is no reason why his treatment of slaves should be singled out as exceptional. The very improvement in the position of slaves so marked during these centuries compels the existence of many a Pliny..." 
 
There may have been large numbers of slaves on farming estates, in mines etc. whose lives were hell. There may have been some household slaves whose lives were hell. But I would suggest that there were also many whose lives were better than your average peasant. I don't accept that Cicero and Pliny were the only men in either the Republic or the Empire who treated their slaves with affection and respect. I would suggest that different people had different attitudes toward their slaves--some kinder than others--that there were many ways of viewing and treating slaves that ranged from treating them worse than dogs to treating them as family members. 
 
The Stoics believed in the brotherhood of man and in Kindness to their fellow creatures. Surely some of them must have practised their beliefs. Marcus Aurelius is said to have always found in favour of slaves in lawsuits involving slaves, his decisions often providing precedents for future cases. 
 
Some of the laws regarding slaves were extremely brutal, but they were not always put into practice. Pliny describes arguing a case in the Senate in which a master was killed where there was debate as to whether the servants should be executed, banished or aquitted. So execution was not automatic. 
 
I could go on, but I have already been extremely long-winded. 
 
I feel that to say portraying some Romans treating slaves well is innaccurate is, well, innaccurate. 
 
Wendy 
 
Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=rekirts>rekirts</A> at: 3/30/03 11:47:08 pm

03-30-2003, 11:18 PM

Hi Wendy, thank you for your response, and I accept everything you say there. Not all people are sadistic psychopaths by any means, and personal house slaves owned by persons like Pliny would be almost certain of good treatment. 
 
It is worth noting however that the example you give of the Senate debating the fate of the household slaves of the murdered owner was only brought to the Senate because there were several hundred people being condemned, including women and children. It is also worth noting that the Senate upheld the law and all were in fact killed. 
 
I have seen estimates of up to 60% of the population of Italy in the Late Republic being slave, although as the life of a slave on a latifundia or in a mine in Thrace was short, this varied a lot according to the wars being conducted at the time. 
 
There was period between 130 BCE and 60 BCE where the slaves in Sicily rose three times to be crushed by the military. These were not happy campers. 
 
Incidentally, referring back to Conn's book, the scenes where the estate slaves riot and storm the villa complex where Caesar is strikes me as particularly accurate and typical of those times. 
 
Colin

03-31-2003, 12:33 AM

Blimey. Isn't there anyone on this site who isn't well-informed? As far as I can tell, the upshot of all this is that individual cases could differ from the main run of slave ownership, either for better or worse, which is what I would have expected - I don't think humans have evolved since Roman times, after all. 
 
I suspect any society with such a vast ratio of slaves to owners must impose draconian laws or risk constant uprisings. Practical, if harsh, which could almost be a Roman motto. Even apart from the years Spartacus spent roaming north and south, it must have been a constant fear for those who wanted to keep them down and I do know that food riots were a constant fact of Republican life, often made worse by the distribution of free corn in crowd-pleasing gestures. Small farmers then couldn't sell theirs and ended up joining the same starving crowds waiting for a hand-out. There's definitely a lesson in there, somewhere. 
 
If the wine still existed, I'd raise a glass of Falernian to you all. 
 
Conn

03-31-2003, 01:22 AM

Good on yer Conn 
 
Something accurred to me that has relevance, ie the treatment of the zwangsarbeiten in nazi Germany. These were virtual slaves, many in domestic "family" situations. Most of those were young girls from the Ukraine, Poland and Czechoslovalia. Rape, starvation and regular beatings were pretty routine.

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