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Evidence for legionary vs auxiliary helmet patterns
#16
So the damaged or discarded copper alloy helmets and other bits were gathered up and recast into something else? Is that your suggestion? Idea

On the basis of no more evidence than the ease that it would be to accomplish this, I'd be willing to lean that direction. Always easier to recast into coins or new decorative pieces than to dig and smelt the ore.
M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)

Saepe veritas est dura.
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#17
i second david because we now recycle to so where did al these helmets hamata and segmentat and other irin brass bronze
object go. if they where trown away the landfills would have been found.
Maybe the ancient romans were better recyclers as the current Italians (as seen on the news)
AgrimensorLVCIVS FLAVIVS SINISTER
aka Jos Cremers
member of CORBVLO
ESTE NIX PAX CRISTE NIX
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#18
Quote:On the basis of no more evidence than the ease that it would be to accomplish this, I'd be willing to lean that direction. Always easier to recast into coins or new decorative pieces than to dig and smelt the ore.
There´s loads of evidence. As two out of many: At Augsburg Oberhausen three pits were found, one containing cut-up lead objects, one cut-up bronze objetcs, one cut-up iron objects.
In Cambodunum a bronze-caster´s workshop was excavated, also showing several pity of cut-up bronze and brass objects. Apparently the craftsman working there had a technique to distinguish the alloys the objects-to-be-recycled were made of, since the cut-up material was minutely sorted after different alloys. it was suggested he did this either by sound (when hammered) or by cutting the material with a blade / through "softness"
Christian K.

No reconstruendum => No reconstruction.

Ut desint vires, tamen est laudanda voluntas.
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#19
I save all sorts of brass and copper. Like the nibs cut from the ends of rivets, filings from fitting things together, scraps of brass left from whatever, or found pieces of plumbing valves, etc. One of these days, I'll get my building built, and a setup made for an oven to melt metals. I'll be able to make use of this stuff then. So far, I'm just mixing the copper and brass, hoping to make a reddish brass that will simulate bronze in appearance. For little things like knife parts, scabbard plates, rivet rosettes, rivets themselves, this should be fine, though the color will likely not be easily repeatable. First step will be to make little ingots of similar size, then remelt those to make cast objects.

So they did sort of the same thing, but probably more specifically and correctly. Heck, they probably KNEW what they were doing. I'm learning by burning my fingers so far. *(Hmmm. There's the crucible of molten copper. Wonder what will happen if I pour this water in there to cool it off?)* Confusedhock:
M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)

Saepe veritas est dura.
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#20
I think we went a bit OT! (albeit an interesting diversion)

My question:

Why are we seeing iron imperial gallic helmets in Augustan Roman military graves, but seldom ever copper alloy ones?

I do not believe the answer is that the copper alloy ones were all recycled. Some of these graves with iron helmets also contain copper alloy paterae and situlae as part of the assemblage.

Specifically I am thinking of the grave panopolies at Idria, Verdun and Nijmegen. Does anyone know of any further graves with infantry helmets, of either copper alloy or iron?

My own contention is that the deceased 'iron helmet wearers' were in this instance buried according to their own native traditions.
So why the lack of copper alloy helmet wearers? - maybe different burial traditions...
Tim Edwards
Leg II Avg (UK)
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.legiiavg.org.uk">http://www.legiiavg.org.uk
<a class="postlink" href="http://virtuallegionary.blogspot.com">http://virtuallegionary.blogspot.com
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#21
Just to stir the pot a little more, why do we assume that legionaries were always cremated and that only auxiliaries were interred? Many ancient peoples practiced cremation and I have always been led to believe that this applied to many Germanic peoples as well. Similarly, do we have any evidence to say categorically that citizens were always cremated? By the mid second century AD it seems to have been acceptable for citizens to opt for burial rather than cremation and by the end of the third century AD inhumation appears to have been quite normal. When did this start? Could inhumation burials have made their way into citizen society through practices adopted by soldiers serving on the frontiers? If so, what would that say about the Nijmegen burial (whose curving shield boss depends on the nature of the burial to be identified as part of an auxiliary shield and which is presently the sole piece of evidence which can be used to justify the use of curved shields by auxilia, but would not be surprising for a legionary) and Idria and Verdun burials?

Crispvs
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers.  :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.romanarmy.net">www.romanarmy.net
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#22
Sorry David for my late response and I do not mean to go OT. You have interpreted my suggestion correctly. I read a book that had the analysis of copper alloy metals from the Greek through the Roman period. From the Roman period, the metal alloys for statues, military gear or even everyday utensils, equipment etc .always seemed to have muliple components. For instance, most of the "brasses" were not only copper and zinc but contained lead, tin, iron etc. Some contained silver mixed in with the brasses. Having such a combination does seem to suggest some type of recycling or constant re-use of smelting pots to process molten metal.

As far as the money issue is concerned, I am not suggesting that they recycled military equipment made from copper alloys to mint coins. However, my suggestion was that brass or other similar alloys were valuable because of their "money status". For instance, suppose you were a legionary and wanted some room and board and you happen to have a brass belt plate that you found somewhere or even one of your own that you are willing to use to purchase services. A brass beltplate could have been used as currency since under Augustus brass (oro calco) was currency.

So I think that it is fair to say that vast amounts of equipment especially in the copper alloy realm was recycled for other things. Why is it that many iron helmets, when found, were devoid of their brass fittings. The so called Gallic H is one such helmet as is the so called Gallic C. Of course there are helmets that have retained their fittings.


Back to the topic.

Sorry Tim, I have no intention of hijacking the topic since you do raise a very valid point about the helmets.
"You have to laugh at life or else what are you going to laugh at?" (Joseph Rosen)


Paolo
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#23
Tim, just because pateras have been found along with iron helmets does not prove there was no recycling going on. Remember that helmets could also be passed down from one owner to the other being an expensive and important piece of equipment. The patera is not as vital nor do I think they were passed down.

Helmets could have been lost during battle and the ones that were brass taken for booty or made into something else of value. As per my previous post, if you know that brass (as an example) is actually valuable since coins were made from it, then why not use a brass helmet to purchase something. Maybe a more decorative helmet or a piece of armor.

The fact that there are so many more iron objects than copper alloy in terms of military items, at least to me, suggests that copper alloy items were 1) recylced into something else 2) were used as money 3)copper alloy objects are more expensive since the materials are more expensive (remember they are alloys that require melting metals together not like iron which is one thing) 4)Iron objects are generally stronger and not as soft when compared to copper alloy objects.
"You have to laugh at life or else what are you going to laugh at?" (Joseph Rosen)


Paolo
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#24
in response to Crispvs..
Quote: Idria and Verdun burials?

These were also found with conical round shield bosses and bent swords - the bosses are typical of flat auxiliary shields and the bending of swords tended to be a practise undertaken by provincial cultures rather than Roman IIRC, suggesting the burial was of a provincial auxiliary soldier.

Nijmegen shield boss..
Quote:and which is presently the sole piece of evidence which can be used to justify the use of curved shields by auxilia

No, we have a second find from Aalen. (see my write-up on curved shields on the website!)

Quote:Why is it that many iron helmets, when found, were devoid of their brass fittings. The so called Gallic H is one such helmet as is the so called Gallic C

The Gallic C was still left with its crest support!
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#25
Thanks for that Frater.

However, to my mind this still leaves the Nijmegen burial's identification as an auxiliary burial open to question.

Do you know anything more about the Aalen boss and its context?

Crispvs
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers.  :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.romanarmy.net">www.romanarmy.net
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#26
I agree. The Nijmegen burial could equally have been a legionary soldier. The boss has a very narrow flange and no holes for attaching it to the shield.

I have photo of the Aalen boss but that is going off topic as we are discussing helmets! I'll consult 'Romische Shilde'
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#27
Salvete,

A very interesting discussion. Re. the speculations on individual preferences of legionary fabricae it may be fun to expand on the list of potential matches:

The following have already been mentioned:

Schaan

Moro Boti

Adria cites a number of similar helmets from the Brigetio area:

Auxiliary B II at Cardiff (all copper)
Auxiliary B III (brass with iron cheek guards and crest finial - private collection)
Gallic J at Caerleon (Iron)
Gallic J at Vienna (iron with cross-bracing)

The Auxiliary B II at Cardiff (all copper) cited by Adrian in his list of helmets from Brigetio is actually not from Brigetio but from Mainz like its close and more famous cousin. It was formerly in Mainz, Marx private collection (Waurick, G., 1976: Die roemischen Militaerhelme von der Zeit der Republik bis ins 3. Jh. n. Chr. 237 S., Mainz, Univ., Diss., 1970; Behn, F.: Sammlung Ludwig Marx in Mainz, Kataloge west- und süddeutscher Altertumssammlungen 2 (1913), 8 No. 65, plate 2; Klumbach, Ein römischer Legionarshelm aus Mainz. Jahrbuch des Römisch-Germanischen Zentralmuseums 8 1961, 96 ff. no. 6). So this gives us another pair: the two "Auxiliary" helmets from Mainz.

I would add to Adrian's "Brigetio" group a group of "helmets with an established or possible connection with Legio I Adiutrix": The Mainz and the Aquincum are both connected to LEG(io) I ADIV(trix) and both show similarities (bronze with tubes and crest finial), there are a number of other helmets, three of them from the Germanic provinces where this legion was active, which show similar traits: Rijswijk (Wijk bij Duurstede), Netherlands, dredged from the Rhine in 1979, the helmet allegedly found in the Rhine by Nijmegen, Netherlands, private collection, formerly collection Burg in Haarlem, then Brummer Gallery New York, today unknown (Miner-Walters, Early Christian and Byzantine Art, Baltimore 1947, and from the river Oude Maas near Alem, Noord-Brabant, Netherlands. Dredging find in 1960 in the Oude Maas by Alem, Province of Noord-Brabant. The helmet formerly in the Axel Guttmann collection, Berlin. Inv. AG 539 and another river find from a private collection have similar properties

the two Herculaneum helmets and

three "Imperial Italic" bronze helmets from the Po/Cremona

also come to mind

the Italic D/E helmets cluster around Mainz or areas where Mainz legions were active (Mainz, Wiesbaden, Gelduba).

Much food for speculation.
Regards,


Jens Horstkotte
Munich, Germany
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#28
There´s a very similiar set of helmets, one in copper alloy, one in iron:
[url:1606sqtc]http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/option,com_helmets/task,view/cid,74/Itemid,96/[/url]
(This reminds me also a lot of the Mannheim-type helmets..)
And this one:
[url:1606sqtc]http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/option,com_helmets/task,view/cid,255/Itemid,96/[/url]
Christian K.

No reconstruendum => No reconstruction.

Ut desint vires, tamen est laudanda voluntas.
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#29
And this?
[url:3101emkn]http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/option,com_helmets/task,view/cid,135/Itemid,96/[/url]
Christian K.

No reconstruendum => No reconstruction.

Ut desint vires, tamen est laudanda voluntas.
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