Gang combat

[PMBardunias]

A visitor to my blog linked me to this video that I thought some of you might like as well.

[url:3t8k6g4q]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXB9ip7SXmg[/url]

It is poor quality, but you can see many of the basic elements of human crowd behavior that would be tuned over time to become hoplite warfare. They opposing hooligans form up in two masses of deep "ranks" at close order, then march towards each other at a "Spartan-style" walk. There is no obvious leader and surely no drill involved. The two masses then collide, and having no spears they presumably are fist-fighting at the front lines. Meanwhile the rear ranks all crush forward and you can easily see how the "files" shorten as the space between each man in line becomes minimal.

It does not last long, the center of that crowd must be hell on an unequipped man, and soon they break just as hoplites would have eventually as well. Note that the whole mass spins, in this case clockwise, one wing winning, the other losing.

The most important take home message from this video is that the crowd can form this dense with no external boundary- walls for example- forcing them together. It is simply the urge to stay together and pressure from those men more loosely packed on the perifery that keeps the center tight. Also note the upright posture of the combatants while pushing each other. It would be difficult to find a better "reenactment" of othismos- I only wish they had aspides!

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Why do the guys with the red always win? :twisted:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9JX0RlA ... re=related
This is another video of the same fight. It shows that later the formed on a bridge and faught there. Eventually the "defenders" of the bridge run away as a group.
Khaire
Giannis

[rrgg]

Interesting stuff, the other thing I notice is that the formations appear to be much deeper than they are wide, I doubt they did this to avoid stepping on the grass which suggests that most of the people there wanted to take part in the fight but didn't want to be on the front lines. I have heard that 18th century battles would occasionally see troops bunching up behind their bravest comrades although I'm curious about whether it happened much in ancient times.

[PMBardunias]

Interesting stuff, the other thing I notice is that the formations appear to be much deeper than they are wide, I doubt they did this to avoid stepping on the grass which suggests that most of the people there wanted to take part in the fight but didn't want to be on the front lines.

The form of this crowd is of the type generally seen in moving herds and probably follows some natural spacing rule- though part of that migh well be avoiding the front. Making a longer, thinner line is where the advent of proper ranks and files is advantageous, for here men can skulk in the rear ranks if they wished- as Tyrtaeos warned against. The lack of ranks and the ability to choose what distance from the front ranks you stand has been held up as evidence for opened order, fluid tactics for early hoplites. Clearly these men are in nothing like opened order, and could be hoplites and even fight in othismos if they were properly equipped.

If prehoplites were fighting like this gang, probably throwing javelins on the approach and from the rear, it is easy to imagine the development of the hoplite panoply for the fore-fighters without any greater need for formation. A line of such blob-like crowds forming alongside eachother on a battlefield, each following a different group of leaders would form a battle-line upon contact with the foes.

Why do the guys with the red always win

You know my answer to that! :wink: Thanks, that second video is clearer.

[qcarr]

Paul and Giannis,

Thanks for sharing the videos! It's fascinating to realize that what these guys are doing is so similar to how hoplite armies fought.

[rrgg]

Do you think the part where the formations broke up and everyone spread out into almost 2 man pairs was historical, or would one side be dead or running by that point?

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

We can't say that this is what ancient combat would have looked like from these videos. Nor that this is how phalanxes faught. What they can give us an idea about is how crowds without any drill or even basic command are likely to act. It also gives us an idea why according to Herodotus,the Persians thought the Athenians were struck by madness when they saw them comming towards them at a run! These men have no weapons,no shields,and nobody has ever told them to stay close to his own men,not to break the formation. To the extend that they do this it is pretty much their own human instinct.
Plato gives some hints on how the defeated withdrew after the formation broke. There would be those dropping their shields and running away,who could easily get killed with spears on their back. And those that formed small groups of few men that held their shields up and stepped back slowly,ready to opose whoever came to strike them down. And the winners would never preffer to kill a man that boldly held his position ready to die fighting, rather than go for an easy kill.
The second "battle" on the bridge i think simulates better what would happen when one phalanx broke,because the winners didn't break into individuals running alone. Of course this is what a well commanded phalanx would do,and indeed the Spartans seem to have had some discipline concerning how much they would chase their enemies.
Khaire
Giannis

[Sean Manning]

Unless we are riot police, rioters, or fight melees with blunt weapons, I think that is about as close to a low-tech battle as we will ever get. The biggest difference is the lack of weapons and therefore lower risk and shorter range. Phobos and Deimos! You can even see the first blackshirt flee from the bridge, and them unfolding like an accordion to the rear as they decide they have had enough.

[hoplite14gr]

Under the assumption that a "master thug" with brains gathered them and trained in mass attack in an organized manner
this type of mess could very well depict what was happening in the initial stages of the phalanx process development.

Any group who would march determinglly and in step against any of these groups giving the impression that will commit serious violence
would have them winning a race medal!

In Athens "loose order" rioting groups hurl objects against formed riot police and run like hares to enter any University nearby when the
riot police simply marches against them in step. (Police cannot enter Universities unless the Professors governing body invites them in)

Kind regards

[PMBardunias]

In Athens "loose order" rioting groups hurl objects against formed riot police and run like hares to enter any University nearby when the
riot police simply marches against them in step.

My prediction is that the type of massed crowd seen in the video would go right through the "loose order" group you describe as well. Formation is undoubtably beneficial to men in masses close combat, but I think the video shows quite well that it is not the prerequisite some have imagined. A mass like this needs no leader, though in practice they would form behind the richest and toughest men with the best armor. You can see men move out in front of the mass to taunt the other crowd. If his name was Achilles he could be throwing javelins at Hector in heroic fashion, then simply move back into the front of the crowd. With no rank structure men move fluidly.

One step up from this would be for each man to simply know who he stood next to with no knowledge of the greater formation. If everyone follows that rule you get a quite servicably phalanx if you originally set them up on a rectangle. Recall that only Spartans could fight alongside whomever they found themselves with.

[Sean Manning]

On the other hand, if they had round shields a meter broad and a pair of double-ended spears, and wanted to be able to throw those spears, I think they would have to spread out a bit more in order for men to be able to move forward and back inside the mass during combat. IIRC, Tyrtaeus seems to describe men able to move forward and back inside the mass during combat, not just during the lulls.

It is very interesting that you can clearly get a reasonably coherent mass of men without drill.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Has anyone noticed that before the initial contact the men in black have formed two groups of similar size one behind the other? (sort of like the Chigi vase)
Khairete
Giannis

[PMBardunias]

On the other hand, if they had round shields a meter broad and a pair of double-ended spears, and wanted to be able to throw those spears, I think they would have to spread out a bit more in order for men to be able to move forward and back inside the mass during combat. IIRC, Tyrtaeus seems to describe men able to move forward and back inside the mass during combat, not just during the lulls.

Throwing spears, like longche would not have sauroters, but you are right they would need more room. This could take the form of men moving forward out of the group to throw, just as some in the video do to taunt (they would have moved forward to taunt too, come to think of it.) You'll note that prior to the second "battle" at the bridge, the group just forms up from men who are more scattered, something that could have occurred between the missile and close-in fighting stages.

It is very interesting that you can clearly get a reasonably coherent mass of men without drill.

I've been attempting to explain this process based solely on theory derived from animal herds, so I am very happy to see video of it in humans. I think it goes a long way towards derailing the position of van Wees and Krentz which has been gaining popularity. Their advocacy of opened order combat is largely based on the fact that they clearly do not appreciate that you can have something that looks and acts like a phalanx without the discipline and organization of later formations. This of this too. Why develop extensive close-order drill if men are fighting in clouds of skirmishers. or even shallow lines? It seems a big jump if the drill comes before the massed infantry concept. Clearly the drill was a means of gaining greater control of the phenomenon we are seeing here.

Giannis: great observation! There may be a reason for it scientifically having to do with the way groups come together. We need more Russian soccer hooligans. Maybe we can make up some meter wide dish-shaped signs for their favorite teams. :wink:

[hoplite14gr]

Hmmm
We seem to be in agreement with Paul that though ad-hoc crowds seem coherent trained crowds have usually the edge.
I still believe that base on what we saw we can draw conclusions for the era around 1200 to 750B.C. rather than later.

At that time those who cast spears needed space and were the "heroic promachoi" with both equipment and training to come forward from the mass.

Kind regards

[nikolaos]

Sorry Paul,

I don't see how this can be used as an analogy... no shields, no spears, and none of the good order essential to the success of the phalanx described in the literature...

Cole