Methana spoils

[Gulan]

There seem to be two sauroters dedicated from people of Methana as spoils of war from Athens and Sparta???

From what conflict? As pieces are usually dated to early 5th BC. How come they are from both Athens and Sparta..What am I missing here.

This is the first one

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3346/34919...187b_z.jpg

The second is on the page 133 from this book..Olympia museum.

http://www.olympia-greece.org/m-ebook.html

[hoplite14gr]

Holy shrines like Olympia and Delphoi were house to spoils from many wars between different adversaries and spoils of antagonists were standing side by side as votive relics.

Pausanias tells of a bronze wolf wich in one side had a victory inscription of the Athenians and on the other a victory inscription of the Spartans!

Kind regards

[Gulan]

I am not sure I follow. Maybe I asked a confusing question. I said ''from'' instead of ''with'' Athens and Sparta

What were the wars or battles where Spartans were defeated by people of Methana. Since sauroter says Methanioi apo Lakedaimonion. And more strangely prior to Peloponnesian wars? When were they ever in conflict either as alone or as a part of alliances.

First decades of 5th BC you have Spartan victories over Argives in 490's, defeat in 480 and victories in Plateia,Myclae...then again victories in 470's over Argives, and Arcadians except Mantineans..Even Messenian uprise in 460's is close to dating of this sauroter from Olympia. But I am not aware of any conflict and Spartan defeat where Methanioi could have taken those spoils, in early 5th BC.

Same goes for Athenians. What was the conflict in which they were defeated by hoplites of Methana who dedicated those spoils.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

I don't know which conflict this spoil comes from, but it actually reads "Methanians from a Lacedaemonian". This could mean that the city dedicated a spoil they took from one soldier who fought under the rule of Spartans...te hee!
Khaire
Giannis

[D B Campbell]

There seem to be two sauroters dedicated from people of Methana as spoils of war from Athens and Sparta???

It's an ancient spelling of "Messenians". The Spartan sauroter was probably taken at Stenykleros. (I haven't seen your Athenian one before.)

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Yes, this is what Sekunda states in his Osprey "Greek Hoplite" where he has a photo of this sauroter.
Khaire
Giannis

[Gulan]

Well it's certainly clearer if it is from Messenians taken from a Lacedaemonian (thanks Giannis about plural singular tip).

But Stenykleros is very early, or the dating of bronze piece is way off...Maybe the butt spike was from the post earthquake conflict/helot(likely Messenian) uprising of 464 BC?

[D B Campbell]

Well it's certainly clearer if it is from Messenians taken from a Lacedaemonian (thanks Giannis about plural singular tip).

I don't follow how the noun's number is significant. The spear obviously belonged to a single man, so we'd expect "from a Lakedaimonian". (Similarly, the Mytilenian spear dedicated at Athens was "from a Lesbian".) However, the Spartan shield at Athens was marked "from the Lakedaimonians" (plural), although it was obviously only one man's shield.

But Stenykleros is very early, or the dating of bronze piece is way off.

How can the piece be dated?

Maybe the butt spike was from the post earthquake conflict/helot(likely Messenian) uprising of 464 BC?

The uprising of 464 BC is Stenykleros! (Maybe I have misunderstood the point you're making?)

[Gulan]

It isn't. I just thanked for assistance. The plural may indicate defeat of an army, while single intem can be just that - single item..but that is a bit far fetched.

How can the piece be dated? Well that is the question for those at Olympia who dated them...at least the ''Athenian one''.


I thought you meant Stenykleros as in Second Messenian war...My mistake.

[D B Campbell]

I thought you meant Stenykleros as in Second Messenian war...My mistake.

You are right to be sceptical. Nothing is clear-cut in Spartan history!

I matched Herodotus' mention of Stenykleros (where Arimnestos, killer of Mardonius, fell with his 300 warriors) with the fourth of his great Spartan wars ("against the Messenians near Ithome"). Others may have a different theory.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Spoils uasually use the plural form of the defeated. The persian helmet in Olympia says "Athenians from the Medes". I cannot say if this is the rule but i do think this is true for the majority of inscribed spoils.
The sauroter could be roughly dated by its typology, which would fit in the fifth century bc but not not so much in the early/mid seventh century bc.

Khairete
Giannis

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