Leonidas and the Agoge

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Or,we should-at last-take all these Spartan laws of divine Lycourgos and their application with a grain of salt...In fact,this is what we should be doing when studying the application of law in any society at any age,including today.Especially when hese laws were thought to be of ancient origin. More so when the laws themselves are being recorded by outsiders,and often in anecdotal forms! Even worse when they have been described centuries after their supposed application,and much worse,when the recording itself was done for educational purposes,more precisely as philosophical and moral examples.
All these said,i don't believe that the Spartans would ever accuse a potential king for having a lame leg after a battle wound! His political oponents though could well bring back into light a small illfuntion even if it wasn't escential enough to forbid the child enter the Agoge.
Khairete
Giannis

[Dithrambus]

Or,we should-at last-take all these Spartan laws of divine Lycourgos and their application with a grain of salt...In fact,this is what we should be doing when studying the application of law in any society at any age,including today.Especially when hese laws were thought to be of ancient origin. More so when the laws themselves are being recorded by outsiders,and often in anecdotal forms! Even worse when they have been described centuries after their supposed application,and much worse,when the recording itself was done for educational purposes,more precisely as philosophical and moral examples.
All these said,i don't believe that the Spartans would ever accuse a potential king for having a lame leg after a battle wound! His political oponents though could well bring back into light a small illfuntion even if it wasn't escential enough to forbid the child enter the Agoge.
Khairete
Giannis

That's actually a good answer to my second question in this thread, I have been curious as to how rigidly the custom of 'exposure' was adhered to. One could assume that it has been at least somewhat over-dramatized in modern books and documentaries.

[qcarr]

"Agesilaos is, indeed, one of the most facinating characters in Spartan history and has been the subject of an entire book by Paul Cartledge (Ageseilaos and the Crisis of Sparta, John Hopkins, 1987)."

Charles D. Hamilton also authored a book about Agesilaos and his period in Spartan history entitled "Agesilaus and the Failure of Spartan Hegemony", Cornell University Press (July 1991). (Note the alternate spelling of the king's name).

[PMBardunias]

All these said,i don't believe that the Spartans would ever accuse a potential king for having a lame leg after a battle wound!

Wasn't the problem not that he was lame, but that there was a Delphian profecy warning about crowning a lame king. That is why he was crowned, because the words were twisted to mean "illigitimate"- as in the bastard of an Athenian adventurer.

[Ghostmojo]

Paul is absolutely right in his assertion, as poor Leotychidas was to find out.

Returning to A2's lameness I think it probably did exist from birth, or maybe infancy - but might not have been so apparent then.

When it comes to the spelling business we seem to divide into two camps; those who follow the more traditional manner of using Latinised English, and those who adhere to the more recent trend towards Hellenised English - as being somehow closer to the Greek. I tend to veer towards the latter, although admit to not going the full nine yards when it comes to say, Corinth as [opposed to Korinthys], or Alexander [as opposed to Alexandros].

I think the Hellenised approach seems more appropriate somehow, particularly when a [hard] K is present rather than a [soft] C; i.e. Lakedaimon rather than Lacedaemon. It looks more Greek - or as close as you are ever going to get in English. But I'm not bothered that others use the more established approach. I agree it doesn't work totally because of the business with H's and Y's etc.

I do prefer the ios and ion to the ius and ium I must say. To me it looks better to read Byzantion, gymnasion, Artemision, Makedon, Epeiros, Boiotia etc. In the case of Agesilaos as opposed to Agesilaus - there is admittedly not a lot in it!

What I do find most peculiar is when I'm reading a book by somebody who mixes up both forms with wanton abandon ...

[PMBardunias]

I think the Hellenised approach seems more appropriate somehow, particularly when a [hard] K is present rather than a [soft] C; i.e. Lakedaimon rather than Lacedaemon.

For a bit of data on what people prefer, I run a blog, Hollow-Lakedaimon. I made up a shadow blog, Hollow-Lacedaemon, which does nothing but redirect you to my blog's correct address. I get many more hits from traffic that is not coming from a site with a specific link or search term on the second.

[Ghostmojo]

I'm not surprised really. The latinised form has been so dominant in both academic and general use for so long. But the other style is making headway. I'm all for it, especially since there is a clear difference in pronounciation: Take Lakedaimon/Lacedaemon, Makedon/Macedon, Chalkidiki/Chalcidice, Skythia/Scythia or Thake/Thrace, and perhaps Lykourgos/Lycurgus for examples of this.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Though,as a note,Makedon doesn't really mean the same. The country should be called Makedonia if spelled with a "k" because "Makedon" is the Macedonian.
Technical thing but worth noting i think.
Khaire
Giannis

[Ghostmojo]

Just out of interest how do they prounounce Mac/kedon/ia in modern and ancient Greece? Is it MaCKedon/ia or MaSSedon/ia?

I assumed the hard sounding K in both instances:?

Unlike English, there is no C in Greek is there? No soft sound with that letter comparable. No Hellenic version. We don't really need it either as we also have the hard K and soft S - but it persists ...

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

No,both would be "Mackedon'ia" since there is only a "Κ" and an "Σ" that can be used. The letter "C" appears in byzantine times but it seems it just substituted the "Σ".
Khaire
Giannis.

[Ghostmojo]

No,both would be "Mackedon'ia" since there is only a "Κ" and an "Σ" that can be used

Which is what I thought, but I didn't really understand your previous comment:

Though,as a note,Makedon doesn't really mean the same. The country should be called Makedonia if spelled with a "k" because "Makedon" is the Macedonian. Technical thing but worth noting i think

I always thought the territory was called Makedon until the Romans took over and split Greece in half with the northern province of Macedonia/Makedonia (including Makedon) and the southern province of Achaea/Akhaia. I appreciate that the modern usage might be different - with the Greek provinces of Dytiki Makedhonia, Kentriki Makedhonia & Anatoliki Makedhonia Kai Thraki - and of course that new rogue Balkan country called 'Macedonia', who we don't talk about...

But in ancient times wasn't it just a case of:

Greek period = Makedon (or Macedon) :?:

Roman period = Macedonia (or Makedonia) :?:

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

No! And in fact i find it very odd that you actually thought of something like that! I mean,it's normal that Mekedonia might become "Macedon" in English,but not the notion that this is what the ancients called it. As i said,Makedon is the man from Makedonia. Written with an omega like "ΜΑΚΕΔΩΝ". Whereas the country has always been ΜΑΚΕΔΟΝΙΑ. "Makedon" grammatically can't be the name of a country. It cannot be written with an "omicron" and if written with "omega" means the man from Makedonia.
This is why it really sounds wrong to say "Philip of Makedon". It should either be "Philip of Macedon" or "Philip of Makedonia" or "Philip the Makedon" or "Philip the Macedonian"
Khaire
Giannis

[Ghostmojo]

Well yes of course I am aware that the whole thing loses some of its essence in the translation, however, I was largely looking at it from a English-speaking and written word context, and trying to see it the same thing held true in Greek (ancient or modern). Perhaps I wasn't explaining myself too clearly because after all I am aware that the English terms Thessaly, Thebes or Athens wasn't how the Greeks of any age would have refered to them.

Your points are well taken, but it is certainly true I have read in English written texts at various times that it was - as you say Philip of Macedon or Makedon - rather than Macedonia or Makedonia. I have also read many times that it was the Romans who coined the 'Macedonia' phrase.

I am of course aware of the term Makedones which was covered elsewhere quite recently:

http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/index.p...966764e03a

However, I readily accept and welcome your clarifications.

Cheers

H

Now, returning to the Lakedaimonian/Lacedaemonian agoge at Sparta, Sparti, Σπάρτα or Σπάρτη ...