Very New light on roman tents construction

[Magnus]

Know what irks me about people? It's ok to use Trajan's Column when it seems to suit their needs for evidence. Yet other times it's condemned, and thought to have too much artistic license, and inaccurate.

Make up your bloody minds. There is evidence, as already pointed out, of guy rope attachments on leather tent piece finds. So it seems to me that once again, the doodles on Trajan's column go against what has been found in the archaeological record.

[Caballo]

Firstly, use of guy ropes is not incompatible with this alternative way of holding up the central ridge, as they could be used to create the "wall"- either with or without internal support poles/ furcas.

Secondly, this method would be both more stable and simple to put up. The poles could be locally sourced, transported on the mule or even - as a possibility- using spare hasta.

Thirdly, it is compatible with other Roman tent depictions outside Trajans column- I am unaware of any wall tent depictions with a central pole. There are several " dog tent " depictions with a central pole however in Late sources.

Finally, I don't think this is not a question of "make your mind up", but of debating alternatives to see what could or would work, based around the evidence, both material and iconographic, including Trajan's Column.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Funny how all this wonderful new evidence always appears right after I buy a piece of equipment....
I'll stick to my tent as it is, thank you!

[mcbishop]

Know what irks me about people? It's ok to use Trajan's Column when it seems to suit their needs for evidence. Yet other times it's condemned, and thought to have too much artistic license, and inaccurate.

Hit the tent peg on the head there, I would have said... assuming you're allowed them with this revisionist tent ;-)

Mike Bishop

[M. Demetrius]

I have had frame members inside wall tents, and outside at the corners with ridge and vertical inside, but I have never had a wall tent work without guy ropes, from little 8 x 8 to 12 x 16 feet, they all need ropes at the sides, and in high winds from the peak down to the ground front and back. Not saying it could not be done, but I have to say that leaving off the ropes on TC doesn't mean a thing when it gets down to camping and tent pitching, any more than the way the segmentata is made on TC and in the real world.

But that's just me. I am going to put corner posts on my tent from now on, because it makes the walls stand up nicer, and helps keep the tent from slanting on uneven ground, regardless of Trajan's Column representation.

[Magnus]

Finally, I don't think this is not a question of "make your mind up", but of debating alternatives to see what could or would work, based around the evidence, both material and iconographic, including Trajan's Column.

No Paul, it isn't. Trajan's Column doesn't show guy ropes. The material evidence does. Why is it then, that the Column can be used when it's simply convenient for people to do so on some occasions, but not for others.

I'm pretty sure the status quo with the Column is that no-one is taking much of it too seriously in terms of equipment. If that is the case, why is this debate happening it all?

[PhilusEstilius]

I think the picture that Harry has shown of the tent with rings might indicate that weights may have been used for there looks like too many for ropes.

In my own opinion I have often considered that the ordinary soldiers tents may have been supported along the sides by their cross equipment carrying poles 4 each side, then with 2 fork poles at the front and rear with a long pole down the cantre for the ridge.

Then for a quick move out in the morning out come the 8 carrying pieces, drop the tent on it's side fold in the 2 front and rear poles along with the ridge pole and when rolled up goes on the mule.
There may have been pegs for the corners so who needs ropes ??

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Well my tent has side poles and center poles, but still requires ropes...
It is pretty sturdy!

[M. Demetrius]

Mine, too. Wall tents need ropes, in my experience. Although I don't generally use every loop they put on them. Both ends and the middle seems to be enough. I'm considering using a long pole through the loops, though, just to help hold the roof flat.

[Tim Edwards]

[attachment=1904]tent_6th_C.jpg[/attachment]

[attachment=1903]62109741_7SUGa0xF_TunisiaMay062650-Copy.jpg[/attachment]

Images most of you will have seen before - but food for thought

[Caballo]

Thanks Tim, I'd seen the Vienna Genesis one above ( one day I will find a colour version...), but where is the other picture / mosaic from?

[M. Demetrius]

If the people sitting in those wedge tents are to scale, then the ridge pole is about 6 Roman feet high, and the tent maybe a little longer than that. Two can sleep easily in there, or one and all his gear/armor.

In cold weather, it wouldn't be a big jump to believe they'd hang a cloak, cloth sheet, blanket or something over the ends to keep the wind out. A wall tent is just a modified wedge tent, in a way, designed to allow more overhead room.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

That's how we do it with comitatus!
Or cover the entrance with shields and sleep under the cloak!

[Caballo]

Some more evidence that guy ropes were used. From De Munitionibus Castrorum possibly by Hyginus (article in JRMES vol 4, 1993).

" 1. We will now explain the way in which the cohorts above pitch their tents. One tent occupies ten feet ([i]I assume this is frontage[/i]); this length is increased by two feet for the pitching, and it shelters 8 men."

What else could this increase of length for pitching be but guy ropes?

(Original 1. Nunc papilionum tensionem cohortium supra scriptarum ostendimus. Papilio unus occupat pedes X, accipit incrementum tensurae pedes II, tegit homines VIII." )

[Paul Elliott]

That's how we do it with comitatus!
Or cover the entrance with shields and sleep under the cloak!

I used to, and still do, hang a cloak over one end, and my shield across the other. I've never really gotten wet, even in foul weather up on Hadrian's Wall, or one very wet weekend at Lunt...