Animal on head with or without a helmet ?

[TFRufio]

They wore helmets underneath! Even soldiers of that time realized the importance of iron! While people of their status would not necessarily be in the heat of battle originally, they were always prepared. The problem was keeping them (the skins) attached, much like a crest. In battle, the signifers, vexellifers, aquilifers, etc, were as significant as the centurion in recognition. They realized the importance of keeping thier status visible, while also keeping their heads. Quite different from the Republican times, I'm sure!

[Crispvs]

The depiction of Genialis wearing a 'sports' helmets is actually based on the stele itself. His animal pelt is shown resting on his shoulder and the is an object which looks very much like the peak of a Sports type 'A' helmet (like the well known example from Ribchester) seems to be emerging from the pelt at the point the head should be.

http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/o...Itemid,94/

Jeffrey, whether something make sense or not to us is not really the issue. Cacaius was asking for evidence.


Crispvs

[M. CVRIVS ALEXANDER]

I just need ANY SOURCE ...

Here you go - a praetorian standard bearer on a fragment of marble in Museum of Fine Arts, Boston:

[attachment=238]file.jpg[/attachment]

[Paullus Scipio]

Indeed.....see my above post for the same frieze fragment.....guess my small 'thumbnail' went un-noticed !!:-(

[Forty-One]

And Pintaius:


http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/o...Itemid,94/

These are the only two portrayed with what is unarguably a helmet with cheek-pieces under an animal skin.

[Forty-One]

Problem is we have no comtemporary written evidence in which a someone writes: "then he took his pelt and helmet off and..."

Actually we do (sort of):

"...signiferi...loricas minores accipiebant et galeas ad terrorem hostium ursinis pellibus tectas." Vegetius, De Re Militari II, 16

"The standard bearers...wore smaller cuirasses and covered their helmets with the skins of bears to terrify the enemy."

[Paullus Scipio]

Although it does not relate specifically to signifers, the practise of wearing animal skins over helmets is referred to by Polybius, when describing Roman light trops ( velites) circa 200 BC:

Polybius( vi.22 ) says:
"22 The youngest soldiers or velites are ordered to carry a sword, javelins, and a targe (parma).2 The targe is strongly made and sufficiently large to afford protection, being circular and measuring •three feet in diameter. 3 They also wear a plain helmet, and sometimes cover it with a wolf's skin or something similar both to protect and to act as a distinguishing mark by which their officers can recognize them and judge if they fight pluckily or not." (translation courtesy Lacus Curtius site)

Note that only SOME adopt this practise.With some 1200 velites per Legion, and up to 25 Legions ( in the second Punic War), if all did, wolves would be instantly extinct in Italy !! )

[Peroni]

In a practical sense, the cheek guards work as a means of fastening and securing the helmet to the head. Without them surely we should see some sort of chinstrap on at least some of these sculptures?

From my own experience of wearing a very heavy bear skin,the weight of the skin does pull back on the helmet even when the front legs are fastened over the chest (as seen on the tombstone of Pintaius). Certainly the cheek guard method helps to keep the helmet in the correct position on the head.

I would suggest that the use of a chinstrap fastening would be quite painful with a large skin pulling down on it from behind.

[M. CVRIVS ALEXANDER]

I agree, also from experience, although my bear is not large.

Notably, the pelts worn by the signiferi etc. do not appear to be large judging from the images. Animal heads do not protrude far beyond helmets, which is usually seen in modern re-enactment, but seat neatly just on the bowls, indicating that the animals used for the pelts were not large.

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

"...signiferi...loricas minores accipiebant et galeas ad terrorem hostium ursinis pellibus tectas." [/i] Vegetius, De Re Militari II, 16

"The standard bearers...wore smaller cuirasses and covered their helmets with the skins of bears to terrify the enemy."

Indeed sort of, since Vegetius is one of the least usable sources for the Imperial legions. i wish we still had Cato's works...

M.VIB.M.

[TFRufio]

"Jeffrey, whether something make sense or not to us is not really the issue. Cacaius was asking for evidence."

When evidence doesn't exist, we must rely on sense. Unfortunately, many of us "experts" have been educated beyond our intelligence. So therefore common sense becomes the issue. Lighten up, and use your head.

[Forty-One]

[..] Vegetius is one of the least usable sources for the Imperial legions. i wish we still had Cato's works...

Yes, but given that there is clear and unequivocal evidence of at least some wearing helmets under their skins in the "Imperial legions" (and a suspicion that all others are too), it seems reasonable to conclude that Vegetius got this one right.