Sarmatian Riders Simonenko

[Folkert van Wijk]

Alltough there's a English Summary, I am not quite sure I understand completly...

On armour: Reading the english summary I get the idea that Simonenko says that:
1) Sarmatians wearing scale armour is more a Roman idea represented in their sculptures.
2) Moost scale finds are early (scythian)not Sarmatian 100 AD.
3) Scales found in Sarmatian graves and others finds in Sarmation context are more likely (war)trophies.
4) Sarmatians 100AD used mail in combination with scale and lammelar armour.

[Alanus]

Hello, Folkert

I'm with you on Simonenko's confusing "English version," which he obviously didn't write.
It appears that he believes standard Sarmatian scale armor was more of a Roman interpretation. Evidently, he is more inclined to think they wore a combo of lamellar and scale. Actually, this is what we see on the Orlat plaque. Pure scale armor, he thinks is Scythian. He shows a good deal of chainmail found in Sarmatian graves, indicating they wore mail prior to their interaction with the Romans. :whistle:

[Folkert van Wijk]

Also the mail would most likey be used in combination with the lammelar and the scales insn't it?

[Alanus]

Yes. I think so. I think Simonenko was simply saying that Sarmatians didn't confine their armor to just scale, as we see in the Roman interpretation on Trajan's Column. I was never impressed by the Trajan depictions, either. They are inaccurate.

The idea of using a combination of lamellar, scale, and even chainmail (as you noted) is probably an old one, but it seems to be "Eastern" (Saka), and Simonenko notes that the (Western) Scythians were the ones who used straight scale armor, not combined with other forms. I have mentioned Eastern armor of the Orlat plaque and Sarmatian type is correctly shown in John Woo's film, Red Cliff. The armor shown shows that the Han era Chinese used armor types borrowed from the Sarmatians and Koreans.

Also, that film very accurately depicts the two styles of sword. The single-edged knife style (dao) was used by the common soldier, the double-edged style used by the court nobles and being referred to by Simonenko as the "Type 1 Sarmatian" sword. Incidentally, in the movie the actress Zhou Wei carries the sword that I designed with Jkoo a few years ago. I think Jkoo made all of the Han type swords for the film... but they didn't get any credit. :dizzy:


[attachment=6603]MyWarringStatessword007.JPG[/attachment]

[Folkert van Wijk]

See smiles so see is happy with your sword...

[Alanus]

Yes, looks like Wei was happy with it. It's really nice sword, complete with ray skin on the upper half of the scabbard and on the grip under the winding. Originally, it was my idea of reproducing the King of Chi-in's sword (the first Emperor). He did'nt have a scabbard slide, and he had trouble drawing his long sword during an attempted asassination. I'll try to find photos of it. This was the immediate style prior to the Type 1 Sarmatian sword.


[attachment=6604]WSsword.2_2013-03-04.JPG[/attachment]


[attachment=6605]WSsword.4.JPG[/attachment]


[attachment=6606]WSsword.5.JPG[/attachment]

[koechlyruestow]

That is very pretty Alanus. :woot:

Why do you think they made the sword-grip so long? Two-handed grip? Fencing style pistol-grip?

[Alanus]

Hello, Eduard

The two-handed grip emerged in the 3rd or 2nd century BC simply because it was required. The swords remained long until the 2nd century AD. All of the Type 1 Sarmatian swords were over a metre long, many of them up to 45 inches. The late Warring States cavalry sword in the above photos is 41 inches, or over 100 cm long. It is typical, and requires a physical two-handed grip to use it with proficiency, especially after a half hour of battle. I have seen longer grips than this on archaeological specimens.

The Sarmatian swords shown on the Orlat Plaque have two-handed grips; and Tacitus distinctly refers to them as "two-handed." These were not like modern Tai-chi blades, but substancial and heavy. The sword above is 8-sided, a modified clamshell. These were different than the lighter 4-sided blades now being foisted upon collectors as "historically accurate." You cannot wag an ancient doulbe-edged cavalry sword around in the manner of "wu-sha" or European fencing. It would kill you rather than the enemy.

These heavy swords have the ability to slice through a light sheet of paper. Many of them were made in three layers, a technique going back to bronze Chinese examples except now in steel sandwiched between outer layers of iron. The sharpened central layer of the sword shown above was clay-tempered at night, using only the light of a charcoal forge to guide the smith. This style of tempering arrived by the 1st century BC. I believe Sarmatians had the same technology since they were welding swords as far back as the 4th century BC. (see Filipovka examples in Golden Deer of Eurasia) Here is a photo of the sword's haman, showing as a wavy line along the edge.


[attachment=6624]WSsword.6_2013-03-05.JPG[/attachment]

I disagree with Simonenko, who claims the Sarmatians didn't have the technical knowledge of the Chinese. Like everything else, ideas were borrowed back and forth... and in particular, much that was Sarmatian shows up in late 5th century China as something "new." :-)

[Alanus]

Here is more info on the Type 1 Sarmatian long-sword. :-)

Dipictions show it being used single handed but the grip is so long that it accommodated a second hand as the warrior became tired. Here is the sword (and scabbard) on the Orlat Plaque:

[attachment=6628]OrlatBeltPlaquefromSogdiana1.jpg[/attachment]


Here is a still shot of Jackie Chan with a Warring States sword, no different than the Type 1 style. Again, the grip is long enough for two hands if needed.

[attachment=6629]wsswords017.JPG[/attachment]


And here is a reproduction, quite accurate, of the First Emperor's sword, showing a long grip.

[attachment=6630]1stemperorssword008.JPG[/attachment]

Here is the design progression of the Type 1 sword. Top: a Warring States sword, c. 220 BC. Middle: Emperor Wu-di's sword, c. 150 BC. Bottom: Sarmatian Type 1, c. 100 BC to AD 100.

[attachment=6631]orlatswords0102.jpg[/attachment]

All the swords are consistent-- long blades and long grips-- from their introduction by the Sarmatians to the Chinese, to increasingly full-fledged forging, to the point the swords became a revered status symbol to both the Wusun/Yu-chi and the Chinese. These were Chi'-in and Han court swords and prized weapons of Sarmatian chieftains. By the early first century AD, they show up in north Pontic Aorsi graves, and by AD 68 they arrive at the river Ister (Danube) in the hands of the Roxolani. mile:

[Vindex]

This is great Alan; thanks for sharing the pictures and your knowledge. :-)

[Alanus]

Thanks, Moi.

Getting all this stuff together has been a decade-long pastime, but I love it. The Sarmatian/early Alanic personna is so unique in an "enemies of Rome" world filled with Celts, Germans, and Persians. Almost all of this comes from info by the Russians and Chinese, while European and American historians have dropped a big ball. illy: :wink: illy:

Here's real hoot photo!


[attachment=6635]wsswords023.JPG[/attachment]

The gentleman receiving the sword is an actual conservator at Emperor Chi'-in's tomb, the actual Terra Cotta army in the background. NOBODY is allowed inside-- Yet, Jackie Chan was given permission. The sword is a repro, supposedly Warring States, with a typical Type 1 Sarmatian grip. I imagine the conservator laughed for an hour after the scene was filmed.