Christies Late Roman helmet: 1 or 2?

[markusaurelius]

I don't think these other images of the "other" helmet made it onto this thread. Definite hinge at the back, clearly different (2 examples) helmets based on the shape of the hinges at the side, and the placement of the "chin strap holes". The exact similarity of the helmets and both of their perfect state of preservation just add to the other issues noted in this thread for me.


[attachment=8689]HermanHistoria5.jpg[/attachment]

[attachment=8690]HermanHistoria6.jpg[/attachment]

[attachment=8691]HermanHistoria7.jpg[/attachment]

[attachment=8692]HermanHistoria8.jpg[/attachment]

[Virilis]

My gut feeling says fake.

[markusaurelius]

Side by Side images to compare


[attachment=8693]sidebyside.jpg[/attachment]

[attachment=8694]sidebyside-2.jpg[/attachment]

[Virilis]

Thanks Markus! DEFINITELY two different helmets. Either we are witnessing a mass-production of similar type genuine helmets or someone has made two fakes with the same basic design. This also means that they have unbelievably the same level condition, which is suspicious.

[M. Val. Naso]

Wow, this complicates things a bit...or not, since there is no chance of findinh two almost same helmets and both of them have genuinity issues.

[Diocle]

Good points, Carlo! I also like how the helmet encloses the face, the impression these late roman helmets make is awesome and haunting. Btw, what do you think about my theory on the "Heteny" thread?:

"The thing why I thought Christies helmet is a fake is this: the nose guard doesn`t resemble any surviving examples of late roman nose guards. In fact the nose guard resembles only one reconstruction, which has no basis on real life examples. The shape is quite the same, also having a "ridge" which I have never seen on a real life example. The basis of this is the [i]reconstructed and hypotethical nose guard which you see usually attached to the Budapest jewelled helmet (it has also the original nose guard, which is rarely seen attached to it). I think the person who made the Christie`s helmet copied this fantasy nose guard, thinking it is based on a real life example. Gotcha! [/i]"

Then again the Deurne and Berkasovo helmets have a slight ridge on their nose guards :errr: ...

I think that your observation is an insurmountable obstacle for those who claim the originality of the work.

The method used by you, it is also used by the best art critics: The Counterfeiters, even the most experienced among them, always brings a part of their historical time, within the fake they are building, ...it is an unavoidable fact that nobody can escape, because we don't belong to the time we are trying to replicate, so, we need to use part of our present to replace the missing parts of the past, but .... doing this, we leave traces and imprints of our crime .... then a good and competent observation is sufficent to discover the truth.

Anyway I would pay a lot of money for the helmet! I love it too much! OK, IMO it's a fake for sure, but ... sometime we need to dream!

@Nathan Ross: Some years ago, I was making a model (maquette) for the architectural study in which I work, in those years it was very fashionable using metals and poor materials looking old and seasoned, in contrast to the modernity of the project, so in short, we were using copper plates and we needed to reecreate a seasoned look, and I can guarantee that using the right acids in few hours we managed to get an amount of copper oxide, that not even an ancient Greek object would have possessed.
Also in this case I feel the action of some acid? corroding liquids? chemical reagents? ... each metal has its own accelerator of oxidation, oxidation is only a chemical combustion. I repeat in my opinion, in this helmet/s the oxidation patina is too homogeneous.
You know for sure that there are tables representing the dimensional increase of iron produced by rust, now look at the central ridge, look at the points where it is fixed to the shell of the helmet, look how it's thin and perfect, there isn't any deformation .... it's a fake!

[Virilis]

Thanks Carlo, very insightful! Anyway I think that the helmet on the right (the "Budapest helmet") is genuine.

[Flavivs Aetivs]

That was exactly my reasoning for it being a fake, the lack of deformation. The ground would have crushed the cheekpieces, unless it was buried in mud. They wouldn't have been dug up in the condition they're currently in, perfectly bent to fit a person's face.

[Diocle]

Thanks Carlo, very insightful! Anyway I think that the helmet on the right (the "Budapest helmet") is genuine.

yes, of course, Budapest is genuine, I was referring to the fantastic and detailed pics of post #349394 by Markus Montanus.

Sorry for the involuntary wrong message, Budapest is pretty famous, ....

[markusaurelius]

You know for sure that there are tables representing the dimensional increase of iron produced by rust, now look at the central ridge, look at the points where it is fixed to the shell of the helmet, look how it's thin and perfect, there isn't any deformation

Or the perfectly cut, circular, no loss of an edge neck guard (see photo of the comparisons). From looking at other originals, it just doesn't jive. Also from having examined original iron pieces that are well reserved, they are not cut that perfect. There was no need to make them an exact circle. It didn't affect the functionality, and furthermore was covered in sheathing and a leather edge in which you couldnt tell anyhow. No laser cutting tools back then :wink:
[attachment=8695]Neckguards.jpg[/attachment]

[Virilis]

If this Christie`s helmet really is a fake, I must admit that the designers have made a good job with it, adding some puzzling details and not copying straightforward from the existing, genuine helmets.

[Diocle]

If this helmet has been sold, there should be some expertise made by some historian, archeologist or expert in ancient weapons ... nobody would pay for an ancient artifact without some expertise ... it would be madness,

So, do you know who made the expertise about this helmet? Is it possible reading the expertise about this hemet? or even finding it?
It would be absolutely interesting reading the motivations backing the autenticity of the artifact, at least it may be a good starting point for our thoughts ...

Anyway fake or not, I'm in love with this helmet, if it's a fake , well ... anyway it's wonderful helmet! (and an absolutely high quality fake, made by an exceptional craftsman!)

[MarcusNorwood]

This helmet looks like the one I buried in my backyard a few months ago but it shouldn't be ready for auction for a while yet so I dont think anyone stole it from me.

[Nathan Ross]

look at the central ridge, look at the points where it is fixed to the shell of the helmet, look how it's thin and perfect, there isn't any deformation .... it's a fake!

Or the perfectly cut, circular, no loss of an edge neck guard

These are very convincing arguments. I'm afraid I'm being forced to your way of thinking here... What a shame!

[Virilis]

Yes, I`m with Nathan here. The same features seem to be available on BOTH helmets! (btw, the easiest way to tell that there are two different helmets is to look at the height of the back part of the cheek pieces which are clearly of different height).