Location of the Frigidus River

[Jona Lendering]

An actually simple question that turns out to be unanswerable with the atlas I have: is the river Frigidus within the 394 frontiers of the province Venetia et Istria?

[Longovicium]

My understanding is that it is - this is the Vipara river located close to the border between Italy and Slovenia and therefore in the Venetia et Histria province according to a map I have of the Roman Empire circa 400 AD.

Fortifications were located nearby which were crucial to the campaign under Arbogast as mentioned here.

[Lothia]

Ave Civitas,

I am doing research on the battle of Frigidus. I just found an article,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claustra_Alpium_Iuliarum
that states:
Most importantly, the Battle of the Frigidus took place in 394 between Castra and Ad Pirum.

Both of these places are in Slovenia. Castra is inside the present-day town of Ajdovscina and Ad Pirum is up the valley (to the east) and central in the plateau halfway between Ajdovscina and present-day Ljubljana.

However, I cannot trace the flow of the Frigidus up that narrow valley nor can I confirm the route of the Roman Road that ran from Castra to Ad Pirum.

Anyone have more information?

Thanks,
Tom

[Tormenta]

The Frigidus should be the Vipava river that is going through present day the village of the same name, so Vipava.

Hope this helps.

[Lothia]

Ave Tormenta,

Thanks. I could locate the river using Google map, but it branches at Ajdovscina and the larger flow curves around the south side of the plateau and goes through Vipava. But that does not follow the narrow valley up into the plateau toward the fort of Ad Pirum, where one article places the battle location.

Tom

[Tormenta]

Ave Tom,

I read the article and is possible that the battle taken place between Ad Pirum(modern day Hrušica) and Vipava or Ajdovščina/Castra(just few km of difference), but the exact location is yet to be found.

Ad Pirum is a mountain pass, the river don't reach because is 800-900m higher, the river sprigs are in the Vipava village and around it. The river is then flowing into the Soča or Isonso river. For a better understanding of the terrain ]here
The picture is not showing nor Vipava nor Ad Pirum(they are a little more to the left) but it give you an idea how the valley looks like.
Using geopedia here push the 3 buttons right above you can see the relief, ortofoto,etc. The page should work in English.

Is more possible that the battle took place in the valley, because the sources mentioned the "divine intervention" that blow the arrows back to Eugenius. That divine intervention supposed to be the wind burja or bora that is blowing from NE or in other word from the mountain to the valley and is still a regular phenomenon in the valley with winds from 80 up to 200km/h. If the weather will be in our favour the attendants of the next year RAT conference will grasp a little of this pleasant breeze :wink:

Another thing the plateau near the fort of Ad Pirum don't existed in the time of the battle it was made during the Italian occupation of the region in the years 1922-1943 and is still far far to small to host a battle of few tens of thousands.

[Robert Vermaat]

possible that the battle taken place between Ad Pirum(modern day Hrušica) and Vipava or Ajdovščina/Castra(just few km of difference), but the exact location is yet to be found.

I can add that the road from Ajdovščina along Logatec to Ljubljana contains many sites where plumbatae were found. Ajdovščina seems to be the place where armies came down from the mountains into Italy, and the valley sems to be the first place to put up a defence. My bet would be field in the valley bottom near Ajdovščina.

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

Travel to every river in the Roman Empire during summer, and put your feet in it.

The coldest one of them all will be it...



M.VIB.M.

[Lothia]

Ave Civitas,

Very good information, Tormenta. Thanks.
As for the plumbata, that road ran through the Julian Limes and I would guess that there were many battles and skirmishes fought there.

Do you know if any of those finds (plumbata) were dated to late 4th, early 5th centuries?

About the valley from Castrum to Ad Pirum, a river runs through there. If that were the battle's location, I wonder why it wasn't called the battle of Bela River?

There is also a comment by at least one historian that Alaric led Roman forces down a narrow valley with archers on both sides (Aiding in the Defense). I don't see such a narrow defile between Castrum and Ad Pirum.

Thanks for the good informantion.
Tom

[Robert Vermaat]

As for the plumbata, that road ran through the Julian Limes and I would guess that there were many battles and skirmishes fought there.
Do you know if any of those finds (plumbata) were dated to late 4th, early 5th centuries?

Most if not all, those that can be dated. But indeed, it's a very strategic route, which was taken by almost any invasion force wanting to invade Italy or Illyria/Pannonia.

About the valley from Castrum to Ad Pirum, a river runs through there. If that were the battle's location, I wonder why it wasn't called the battle of Bela River?

Bela seems like a Slavic name to me (meaning 'white')?

There is also a comment by at least one historian that Alaric led Roman forces down a narrow valley with archers on both sides (Aiding in the Defense). I don't see such a narrow defile between Castrum and Ad Pirum.

I do. Both routes have narrow defiles, but I agree that such a descrition would fit better with a battle at the southern end of the Vipava valley. Nevertheless, this was quite a large battle, and parts of it could have taken place miles apart. And since both routes meet south of Ajdovščina/Castra, I think it remains possible, whichever of the 2 routes favoured, that a main battle took place on the banks of the Vipava river, south of Ajdovščina/Castra. I would not bet on any remains, because rivers like these often burst their banks and change course across the whole valley floor.

[Tormenta]

Bela seems like a Slavic name to me (meaning 'white')?

Yes, it's true. Bela is more a stream going down from the mountains.

I do. Both routes have narrow defiles, but I agree that such a descrition would fit better with a battle at the southern end of the Vipava valley. Nevertheless, this was quite a large battle, and parts of it could have taken place miles apart. And since both routes meet south of Ajdovščina/Castra, I think it remains possible, whichever of the 2 routes favoured, that a main battle took place on the banks of the Vipava river, south of Ajdovščina/Castra. I would not bet on any remains, because rivers like these often burst their banks and change course across the whole valley floor.

I agree on most things. Vipava river seem calm and slow, but almost every year floods(last year was quite serious). The valley is undergoing "heavy" farming, because of it fertile soil and it's Mediterranean climate, for centuries.

Last month in Miren(still in the valley, close to the Italian border the archaeologists found a few graves of Eastern Goths, but they are from 6. c. Maybe they will have more luck next time.

Next year(hope) will be out a collection of papers about Roman army in Slovenia, lectures from last month meeting about the same subject organized by the National museum and Science academy of Slovenia(they promised a English translation, but is on the authors to do it, so it will take some time, at at last in my case). It should have an article on Ad Pirum, when the fort(or one of the towers) was burned down and rebuild, maybe this will help understand the situation in that times. It also should have some more articles on Claustra Alpium Iuliarum.

[Lothia]

Ave Tormenta,

You wrote:
It should have an article on Ad Pirum, when the fort(or one of the towers) was burned down and rebuild, maybe this will help understand the situation in that times. It also should have some more articles on Claustra Alpium Iuliarum.

Are those articles available? I would like to read them.

Tom

[Tormenta]

The articles will be published next year, not before April. I will try to get a copy, but remind me of this in a few months in case I forget about it.

[Tormenta]

The National museum of Slovenia uploaded a reconstruction of the Ad Pirum fortress here

[Tom]

That video is pretty cool. I haven't seen a Roman fort like that before, divided into sections. It reminded me of how some ships are constructed, divided into seperate compartments. The idea being if one section is breached the others will still hold.