Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Athenian 4th century military reform
#1
RAT,

I am at a loss on the subject of the military reforms that took place in Athens during the 4th century. The general Iphicrates is credited with these reforms but I could not find any literature on the subject. Does anyone know any decent military-technical literature about these reforms?

With kind regards,

Hans Nielsen
Reply
#2
For starters :

http://monolith.dnsalias.org/~marsares/w...oplit.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iphicrates

http://www.allempires.com/article/index....es_reforms

http://books.google.nl/books?id=dJTK3mCM...es&f=false

http://www.ne.jp/asahi/luke/ueda-sarson/...ates1.html
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/luke/ueda-sarson/...ates2.html

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/17851386/The...tic-Period

Good luck !

M.VIB.M.
Bushido wa watashi no shuukyou de gozaru.

Katte Kabuto no O wo shimeyo!

H.J.Vrielink.
Reply
#3
I'm not entirely sure what you are asking about. If you mean the peltast/hoplite hybrids, sometimes called "Iphicratids", then these do not equate with a "reform" at Athens, who did not abandon her true hoplites. It is unclear if these troops were ever anything more than an expedient of Iphicrates that did not long outlive him. If you are referring to the increasing role of peltasts in general, then this predates Iphicrates.
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
Reply
#4
True, since on Sphacteria in 425 the Spartan hoplites as well as their helot attenders got a kicking by peltasts and other light armed javelin throwing Athenian creeps..

(Sparta lover here xD)
Bushido wa watashi no shuukyou de gozaru.

Katte Kabuto no O wo shimeyo!

H.J.Vrielink.
Reply
#5
Don't forget the introduction of standard military training and peacetime service (the ephibate) sometime in the 4th century BCE, and Xenophon's proposals for reforming the Athenian cavalry, and the construction of a network of border forts around Attica. Athens in the 4th century BCE is very well documented, so we have a good view of the military changes which took place in that particular century (although the details are fuzzy as they always are in ancient history).
Nullis in verba

I have not checked this forum frequently since 2013, but I hope that these old posts have some value. I now have a blog on books, swords, and the curious things humans do with them.
Reply
#6
See also:

Thracian Peltasts and their Influence on Greek Warfare [Hardcover]
J. G. P. Best (Author) Studies of Dutch Archaeological and Historical Society. Groningen, Netherlands. ASIN: B001HS4Z7I (no isbn sorry)- This mostly deals with Iphicrates and what he has historically been given credit for. Not the thickest book, but it doesn't always need to be.

Paul is correct that Peltasts were being adopted as a mainstay in warfare. I know of at least one forthcoming article that is dealing with the disentanglement of "psiloi" in Thucydides. Important to this discussion because there are many instances of NON-Hoplite troops being lumped together in the class, but it is specifically evident that in many cases Thucydides makes reference to any number of hoplite groups in various battles and campaigns. That article is due out in the fall as I understand it.
Dan Powers
Society of Ancient Military Historians, Secretary
http://arkaion-bellum.com/

“It’s not a matter of being afraid or not, it’s about what you do when you ARE afraid”
Reply
#7
Thank you everybody for your replies.
I was wrongly under the impression that the whole Athenian military was reformed somewhere in the 4th century. There was a passage in Anderson, J.K., Military practice and theory in the age of Xenophon (California 1970)that answered my question about the peltast reforms by Iphicrates.

Regards,

H. Nielsen
Reply
#8
Quote:True, since on Sphacteria in 425 the Spartan hoplites as well as their helot attenders got a kicking by peltasts and other light armed javelin throwing Athenian creeps..

(Sparta lover here xD)

Of course the Spartan contingent on Sphacteria was mostly made up of Perioikoi and they had been under siege and consequently badly "under-supplied" for 72 days. That they were able to put up a fight at all at the end of that against anyone is pretty impressive.

Sphacteria, for many reasons, may not be the best example of the superiority of Peltast over Hoplite.
Dan Powers
Society of Ancient Military Historians, Secretary
http://arkaion-bellum.com/

“It’s not a matter of being afraid or not, it’s about what you do when you ARE afraid”
Reply
#9
Well, also in the Hellenika there are numerous instances where Spartan armies get into trouble because of Peltasts throwing Javelins up from the rocks...

M.VIB.M.
Bushido wa watashi no shuukyou de gozaru.

Katte Kabuto no O wo shimeyo!

H.J.Vrielink.
Reply
#10
Quote:Xen. Hell. 4.5.17 Then the troops, being now desperate, because they were suffering and being slain, while unable to inflict any harm themselves, and, besides this, seeing the Athenian hoplites also coming against them, took to flight.

It is often forgotten that even at Lechaeum it required hoplites to administer the coup de grace to the 600 Spartans. Situations like this were likely the impetus for Iphicrates creation of heavy peltasts
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
Reply
#11
I have a large section covering this most difficult subject in my new book "The Gods of Battle" There are many possible explanations and interpretations and I have tried to include them all. You could say that the 4th century reforms form a central part of the book. If you are interested in peltasts and other light troops as well as hoplites you will love this book.


It is available from the usual outlets eg Amazon.com http://www.amazon.com/Gods-War-Thracians...460&sr=1-3

to find it on the publihser's website go to
http://www.pen-and-sword.co.uk/?product_id=2852

Cheers,
Christopher Webber

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.flickr.com/thracian">http://www.flickr.com/thracian
<a class="postlink" href="http://s284.photobucket.com/albums/ll17/thracian_photos/">http://s284.photobucket.com/albums/ll17 ... an_photos/
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.youtube.com/thracianTV">www.youtube.com/thracianTV

[Image: Folp126_small.jpg]
Reply


Possibly Related Threads…
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  military revolution of the 4-th century eugene 6 2,580 08-31-2010, 09:35 PM
Last Post: PMBardunias
  4th century bce Military belt Arthes 2 1,339 03-17-2007, 02:31 PM
Last Post: hoplite14gr

Forum Jump: