Laconian short sword

[KrimzonKnight]

By what time had the spartans began to make the transition from the xiphos to the short sword? It was later than the persian wars, right? I think I read somewhere on here that there are no depictions of it prior to around 450 B.C.

[Dithrambus]

Hopefully someone more knowledgable than myself will chime in on this topic, however from what I have read there dosen't seem to have been a purposeful Spartan transition from the xiphos to the short sword, often referred to as the 'Laconian Sword', if I'm not mistaken there is very little monumental evidence of it's existance at all (one example found on a funeral stele I believe, but again I could be wrong). Some also seem to be of the opinion that there is no such thing as a truly 'Laconian sword', both the xiphos and shorter variations were likely used throughout Greece.

It has been quite some time since I did any research on this subject and I don't have any materials in front of me at the moment, but hopefully someone else will provide some further insight.

[hoplite14gr]

Laconian sword was a term coined by modern authors ans picked up readily by traders for marketing reasons.

Short swords - very shot some times- are known from the bronze age.

If some one does a search I have posted images in threads relating to this

They also apear in pottery and art of various city states from 650 B.C. to 450 B.C while a certain book claims that the sword appears in the 4th century!

As for the much abused word "XYALE" no one knows what it was or if it was a weapon at all.

Kind regards

[Dithrambus]

If some one does a search I have posted images in threads relating to this

Hi Stefanos!

Yes, I knew this topic had been discussed here in the past and I had intended to post some links for Eric, but I haven't quite gotten the hang of the search function here at the new forum. :neutral:

[john roberts]

Maybe we can trace this to one of those "Spartan sayings" anecdotes: a young Spartan, on receiving his first arms, complains that his sword is too short. His mother (it's always the mother, isn't it?) admonishes him: "Just take one step closer." Later generations may have taken this to mean that Spartan swords were always uncommonly short.

[PMBardunias]

As John says there is anectdotal evidence from some of the stories about Spartans, also the one about Spartan swords being favored by sword-swallowers. There are however, more than a few images showing very small swords in the hands of either Spartans or held by Thebans on stelai at a time when they had adopted elements of panoply, like the pilos, usually credited to Spartan fashion for its popularity.

Such swords would be the devil in the press when men are very close. There is a vase that shows the strike that would be best- down from above into the chest cavity along side the neck where there are no bones to get in the way.

[KrimzonKnight]

yes, i remember reading that quote. Also there was one about a spartan saying that their swords were short because they fought close to the enemy.

[KrimzonKnight]

ahh so they existed since before 450 B.C, i see. But by when were they standard equipment for the spartans? I had it understood that it was the standard spartan sword during the peloponnesian war, but could it have been the main spartan sword during the persian wars? I always thought that they used the standard xiphos during this time. Ive even read that the kopis was their main weapon in one book.

[hoplite14gr]

Paul is right when he say that the short sword was good for the crammed phalanx conditions.

Equipmes is belives to be standard in the Bronze age where the king was distributing the goods. Until Macedonian kings re-establish state owned workshops there was little standarization between 800 B.C to 350 B.C. It depended in what you favored or what you could afford.

Now: if you are not posted on the rightmost stichos of the phalanx you have VERY limited right hand movement. As long as the opponents resist you can only do overhead stabbing or if you are experienced the "Gurka cut" with the kopis. So naturally a short sword or even a humble dagger can wreck havoc in this conditions.
If the enemy breaks all sword tricks apply but this is another thing as you are not in the phalanx formation.

After several finger scars and elbow bruises I am adamant on this as I have tried many times and even experienced sword instructors who found themselves in our packed ranks admitted that most of the sword-play was negated by the very nature of the phalanx.
It was only a matter of time for the hoplites of your average city state to abandon the long and expensive blades for something more appropriate for the job at hand

Kind regards

[rrgg]

Although how useful is it outside of the shoving match? What's stopping a hoplite from carrying both a shorter and a longer blade like the Romans did?

[Dithrambus]

But by when were they standard equipment for the spartans?

I would like to re-post the OPs original question, I have never read anything to suggest there was ever an intentional shift from the Xiphos to a 'short sword' by the Spartan military. If the only evidence for this is a couple of ancedotal quotes from Plutarch, then I would be at least somewhat dubious. I would however like to hear the opinion of others on this and I'm sure the OP would like an answer to his question. :-)

[KrimzonKnight]

Thank you for responding! Yes, i would imagine the short sword would be great in the the phalanx formation, you don't require a lot of room to maneuver it. You could probably stab around your opponents shield straight into their neck without much trouble or stab at their thigh from beneath. truly a weapon perfectly suited for the phalanx. I guess i should rephrase my question since there was no standardization in arms. what sword was most commonly used by the spartans during the persian wars? Also would it be possibly for a hoplite to carry more than one sword, are there any depiction in art of such a thing?

[KrimzonKnight]

Yeah, Ive wondered this too. why not carry a kopis or xiphos and a short sword. The short sword for phalanx and the longer sword, should you find yourself in single combat? I don't imagine it add to much weight. Maybe since the swords were carried with a baldric, it would become to inconvenient to carry two?

[KrimzonKnight]

Thank you for responding!

well Im looking through my copy of "Plutarch: On Sparta" from penguin classics. Both quotes about the short sword are from the 4th century B.C.

It was Demades who said conjurors swallow Spartan swords because they are so small. He said this to Agis the younger (338-331)

The quote about fighting close to the enemy was from Antalcidas, he lived in the time of the reign of Agesilaus, so thats early to mid 4th century B.C. He said it in response to someone who asked him why the Spartans used short daggers.

I don't know if the quotes are translated differently in other books. But, both quotes seem to indicate that the short sword was associated with Sparta, so they were either very common among them or standardized and that they maybe other cities didn't use them or used them to a lesser degree.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Well,the point is that it is Plutarch who writes these anecdotes,some 4-5 centuries after the supposed events happened. This makes them very dubious of course.

The hoplites weren't carrying two swords,and the reason is that one was sufficient. 7th century hoplites often carry no sword at all,even though they're bronze clad with bell cuirasses and greaves,and often leg and arm guards.

And just how short is a short sword. All through the 6th century,the typical xiphos in the form that existed till the hellenistic times, took any range of lenght, from less than 40cm to more than 55cm. Connolly says that the typical hoplite sword was around 60cm long,and i presume he's talking about the blade. Truth is that most i have seen are well under 50cm.

Yes,there are a couple of athenian funerary stelae that showan exceptionally swort sword or dagger,but we can't know if the one that carries it is supposed to be a Spartan. After all,there have been so few encounters between true Spartan and Athenian hoplites.

There is no reason to suggest that the spartans favoured the kopis,and after all,contrary to what some books imply,the kopis was not shorter than the xiphos. In fact some kopides are much longer than the longest xiphi found.

Last,there is a 4th century Spartan statuette that carries a rather long sword!

Conclusion, we don't know what the spartans carried either in the 5th or 4th century, because there is contradicting evidence. Contadictory to the suggestions that the Spartans wielded either very swort or long swords. So in my opinion the most rational sum is that the Spartans carried the same swords as the rest of the Greeks. And this doesn't exclude a favour towards the shorter types of the xiphos as time passed.

Khaire
Giannis