Re: Show here your Germanic warrior impression

[Harjaz]

Awesome pictures! I thought that 'elite' and 'cultic' Germanic warriors were often underepresented on the reenactment scene, but I'm glad to see some reenactors representing this fascinating group. However, when it comes to 'cultic' warriors, much of the information is skeptical, or non existant. Just wondering, what kind of paint do you use in the pictures (i'm thinking something like acrylic paint). Ingvar, have you also heard the theory that the Harii were related to the later Einherjar or Norse culture? Etemologists believe there is a similarity between the words 'Einherjar' and Harii, and the 'army of the dead' theory matches this theory perfectly (as the Einherjar are the fallen warriors in Valhalla). If this is the case, it seems unlikely that they would be limited to one tribe, and may have existed throughout all of Germania (some more or less in certain areas of course). I can see the black paint being used both for camouflage (as they also blackened their weapons), but it would most certainly have been a pschycological weapon, as well as an important part of the cult.

[Ingvar Sigurdson]

Indeed Dan. S.Polington's chapter 'The Structure and Origins of the Warband' in his book 'The Mead Hall' which nicely presents an overview of the many aspects of the 'sacral' warrior and warrior bands.

Einherjaris based on the same root word herr.The Germanic original of here/herris herjazof which Hariiis said to be the plural.

best
Ingvar

[Harjaz]

Hi Everyone,

Due to some recent posts in 'Show your Germanic Warrior Impression' about the Harii, I have decided to expand this topic and create a new thread about Germanic Cultic Warriors in general. I am perticularly interested in the Harii, but, try and I might, I can't find very much information about them. What I do know about them comes from Tacitus's Germania, and several theories surrounding them (such that they may have been the literal army of the dead, similar to the later Einherjar). Some also believe that they were not just a single tribe, but a wider spread cult of warriors dedidcated to the god Wodan (proto Germanic 'Wodanaz'). I also find their use of warpaint as camouflage interesting, but it also served as a psychological weapon. I'm also interested in the later norse Berserkers and Ulfhednar, so if anyone could tell me more about them, I'd be very thankful. I'm perticularly interested in how the Berserkers atained their legendary battle rage, and also how widespread they were among the continental Germanic tribes. Regarding the Ulfhednar, I'm simply interested in them in general, as well as any other Germanic wolf warriors. I know I havn't given much information here, but I hope to start an interesting dicussion on these fascinating warriors.

thanks,

Dan

[Redwald]

Hello Harjaz,
As Ingvar has already stated, probably the best book on the subject is that by Kris Kershaw - available in German from Amazon:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Odin-ein%C3%A4ug...893&sr=1-1

Or from the Journal of Indo European Studies in English (expensive):

http://www.jies.org/DOCS/monojpgs/Mon36.html

She treats the subject pretty comprehensively, going back to some earlier Indo-European civilizations and pointing out some common threads; she too, feels that the Harii were not a tribe. She amasses some convincing evidence. Well worth a read.

Cheers,

Paul

[Sascha]

Redwald give the right book Kris Kershaw...

On the other hand Harii are only shortly mentioned is tribe,Warrior band or just an artificial story invented by Tacitus we will never know...

[Ingvar Sigurdson]

Kershaw acknowledges the paucity of evidence on the written source for the Harii. As Paul says the book is a valuable read, and for those with an interest in sacral warriors not only Germanic but those of other cultures too.

The belief in shape shifting and shamanistic practice is very old, and it should not be surprising that the Germanic tribes held such beliefs, the Romans certainly appear to have done so, Jupiter like Odinn was also a shape shifter and the Roman Military also had there own pelt wearing warriors too!

I would also recommend 'The Quest for the Shaman' for an interesting over view of shamanistic cultic practice in the European archaeological record
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Quest-Shaman-Sha...0500051348

How the later Norse Berserk and Ulfhednar warriors achieved there ecstatic state is difficult to tie down, and a myth on the use of Fly Algaric seems to have achieved some recognition but the actual evidence as far as I am aware is non existent and seems to be related to shamanistic practices of a more northern people.

Other psychoactive organic substances such as ergot, cannabis, artemisia, mandrake,henbane, opium, convolvulus seeds, and mistletoe pollen are all mind altering substances known from the archaeological record but it is not known that such substances were used by sacral warriors.

Of course altered mind states of conciousness can also be gained by ingestion of alcohol and often has been used as a medium to communicate with the 'otherworld' and warriors attempting to shape shift into their totem spirit form may have utilised a 'sacred' alcoholic intoxication.

There are of course other forms of attaining altered states, sensory deprivation, breathing, singing, dancing, drumming and ritual dance. It is interesting that the figure of the Dancing Man is often accompanied by a pelt wearing warrior,and of course this brings to mind the weapon dance as described by Tacitus.

I would also recommend 'The Quest for the Shaman' for an interesting over view of shamanistic cultic practice in the European archaeological record
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Quest-Shaman-Sha...0500051348

best
Dave

[Harjaz]

Is there any evidence that the Harii were also estatic warriors, or were they just black-painted night fighters? I've heard many theories of the process of Berserkergang, but I was wondering what you guys think is the most valid theory. I also talked to a Viking reenactor last year, and he said that being a Berserker was not a regular 'position' or 'occupation' but it was more like something you did once. However, I am skeptical about this because I remember reading about one King of Norway who had berserks for his bodyguard (indicating that they must have been professional warriors). Is there also any evidence that berserkers were used among continental Germanic tribes? I also read about earlier Germanic pelt wearing wolf warriors, and the theory is that they were 'outcasts' from regular society and were hired as mercenaries because of their hard way of life in the forests. I don't know much about Ulfhednar, but were they similar to these earlier warriors? You also mentioned that Ulfhednar were estatic warriors like berserks, but did they acutally go into a mad battle frenzy like the berserks?

[Ingvar Sigurdson]

There is no direct evidence from the known literary source of Tacitus, which I'm sure your familiar with,which indicates the Harii as ecstatic warriors ,or even that they were other then just black-painted nocturnal fighters.

Kershaw suggests that there is an implication within the source that the Romans believed their appearance and strategy to be a form of psychological warfare, but there is conjointly the implication within the Tacitus passage that is a custom to blacken their appearance; which would infer that is was not used as an occasional ruse and begs the question would an enemy be fooled be such a tactic as a paint job and night attack more then once or twice? The proposed custom is said to representative of the the Harii, or Herr, the army of the Lugii perhaps as an 'army of the dead' which may ring true if an Herr was partly composed of the Mannerbunde, that is the youth of the tribe.

Simplistically, this mannerbunde model proposes that as a youth, they are said to be in a liminal state being neither boy or man and as an initiate the youth are separated from the women, and other non initiates and are said to be 'dead' and belonging to the honoured ancestors and it is this concept that is important to the Harii as a sacral and possibly ecstatic warrior.

The period of passage is spent in the wilds outside of society were the martial skills and learning tribal knowledge is undertaken under the tutelage and leadership of an older warrior, they dressed in pelts or perhaps even painted themselves 'black' representative of there status as 'the immortal dead', the dead are immune to fire or sword much alike the later Norse Ulfhednar and one can imagine them rushing wildly with enthusiasm into guerilla style combat battle with little restraint eager to show there bravery much as Tacitus describes.

Perhaps the 'mercenaries for hire' you mention derives from the belief in Tacitus that such young guns would look to other martial leaders as a source for succour and battle honours if their own leaders did not provide for those wants, but it is difficult to say with any certainty that they were wolf-warriors.

Speidal sees germanic wolf and bear warriors among the vangard of Trajan's troops during the Dacian Campaign depicted on the well known triumphal column, and if this is correct it would tally with the Norse Ulfhednar warriors of Harold Finehair that you recall.

There is also a historical literary source that describes Langobardic 'hound headed' warriors which would indicate wolf warriors.

It is likely that the Ulfhednar and Berserker of Norse tradition are the final echoes of these earlier warrior cults and the belief that again that the Ulfhednar were impervious to fire and iron would indicate an ecstatic state, and if seen as Odinn's men they are dedicated warriors, filled with the battle fury cognate with that god.

Berserker warriors appear in the sagas as literary motifs, becoming marginalised loutish, thuggish figures and this may possibly be a reflection of changes in belief.

For a discussion on the Berserkergang see the below which covers most of the later sources and signals of belief that can be sifted from them.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/3208892/Shapes...hen-Grundy


The above is just scraping the surface Dan, and there is much more to say but would take another book on the subject!

best
Dave

[Votava]

The Harii are an interesting subject and Kershaw views them as a literal 'army of the dead' in her monagraph 'The One Eyed:Odinn and the (Indo-) Germanic Mannerbunde' saying that Tacitus's informants are likely to have been incorrect as seeing the Harri to be a tribe and considers them to be the shock troops of the Lugii, their name implying they are the men of the Her.

This point od view is also very popular among Polish scientists. Personally, I like this theory.

Einherjaris based on the same root word herr.The Germanic original of here/herris herjazof which Hariiis said to be the plural.

To be honest we decided to use "gothic" version of the word meaning simply "warriors". But it was so similar to the name: Harii, that we decided to use the name of "Harjis" as the name for all our ancient Germanic projects.

I can see the black paint being used both for camouflage (as they also blackened their weapons), but it would most certainly have been a pschycological weapon, as well as an important part of the cult.

It sounds very convincing.

We should try to improve our style of "black body-painting". The final effect is still not satisfying. The more paint - the better effect I think. Two blokes from "Harjis": (Event: "Dymarki Swietokrzyskie", Nowa Sol, Poland, 2010):


We use modern stage makeup paint.

Thanks for all those inspiring opinions! At the end, my favourite picture showing our "wolfpack" tactic: (Event: "Varusschlacht", Kalkriese, 2009).



Nice, nice stuff, Redwald! I like the spear. We try to prepare something similar, of course in darker style .

[Tiberio]

Awesome pictures! I thought that 'elite' and 'cultic' Germanic warriors were often underepresented on the reenactment scene, but I'm glad to see some reenactors representing this fascinating group. However, when it comes to 'cultic' warriors, much of the information is skeptical, or non existant. Just wondering, what kind of paint do you use in the pictures (i'm thinking something like acrylic paint). Ingvar, have you also heard the theory that the Harii were related to the later Einherjar or Norse culture? Etemologists believe there is a similarity between the words 'Einherjar' and Harii, and the 'army of the dead' theory matches this theory perfectly (as the Einherjar are the fallen warriors in Valhalla). If this is the case, it seems unlikely that they would be limited to one tribe, and may have existed throughout all of Germania (some more or less in certain areas of course). I can see the black paint being used both for camouflage (as they also blackened their weapons), but it would most certainly have been a pschycological weapon, as well as an important part of the cult.

What is that supposed to be? Never heard here in Germany of any "elite- or cultic germanic warriors" is this something more from a esoterik fantasy point of view or inspired by too many Osprey books?
As writen accounts are almost all roman, they can be seen as propaganda, or an appeal on returning back to old virtues. Archeological findings do not show anything of the likes of that. Especially anything called "cultic" is very much in the grey and hardly graspable. I have my doubts about any "elite" stuff as most where organised in tribes, and didn´t give a hoot about the other tribes unless there was a opportunity to clobber them. Rarely did the tribes unit and that at the most for only a short time, to then break up into their old small groups and go at each other again. Just need to think of Arminius. Who was disposed of by a relative. And the romans comment on not further bothering with Germania, but instead letting the tribes rather finish themselves off.
The use of coloring for the face and exposed skin makes sence when thinking of Arminiuses tactic of guerilla tactics of ambushes. But for that you do not need any "elite" or "cultic" as the surprise factor is already such and advantage.
Sorry when I read about "elite" or "cultic" germanic warriors I think more of wishfull thinking from the 1930s to 1940s and not of the actual period. But that is just my opinion. Here in Germany depicting germanic tribes is a bit delicate as you can very easily be filed with very radical people no sain reenactor would want to associate with.

I hope my comment causes no hard feelings, only when I read stuff like that, certain pictures do come to mind, and I am certain I am not alone in that point of view.

[authun]

As writen accounts are almost all roman, they can be seen as propaganda, or an appeal on returning back to old virtues. Archeological findings do not show anything of the likes of that. Especially anything called "cultic" is very much in the grey and hardly graspable. I have my doubts about any "elite" stuff as most where organised in tribes, and didn´t give a hoot about the other tribes unless there was a opportunity to clobber them.

I am inclined to agree that the Harii are just a sparsely attested tribe. I'm not a fan of back projecting sagas by 1000 years and drawing firm conclusions.

In addition to Tacitus, we have Pliny's Hirri who may be the same group, "quidam haec habitari ad Vistlam usque fluvium a Sarmatis, Venedis, Sciris, Hirris tradunt" and the Negau B helmet inscription, harigasti teiva. Although the script and language are debated, the personal name harigast is almost universally read as germanic. I think we are looking at an early tribal name which disappears along with many others in the migration period. Some try to associate the Harii with Redwald's favourite topic, the Heruli, though I understand this is rejected on linguistic grounds.

best
authun

[Ingvar Sigurdson]

As I previously acknowledged Kershaw's regard to the paucity of the literary source of Tacitus on the Harii.

Quote from the Journal of Indo-European Studies Monograph No 36;
'Most scholars seem to assume that the Harii were the mature consecrated warriors, like those of the Chatti described in Germania 31. I think it at least as likely that they were the *koryos of the Lugii. These adolescent warriors were normally the guerrilla fighters. But one short passage does not give enough information for arguing one side or the other'.

best
Ingvar

[authun]

As I previously acknowledged Kershaw's regard to the paucity of the literary source of Tacitus on the Harii.

Quote from the Journal of Indo-European Studies Monograph No 36;
'Most scholars seem to assume that the Harii were the mature consecrated warriors, like those of the Chatti described in Germania 31. I think it at least as likely that they were the *koryos of the Lugii. These adolescent warriors were normally the guerrilla fighters. But one short passage does not give enough information for arguing one side or the other'.

You did, yes, but my comments were more in support of the Harii being a tribal name rather than a cultic league. Even if it is not a tribal name, it may only refer to a type of warrior, without requiring any specific religious significance.

Kershaw's interpretation is certainly a possibility but the argument is entirely etymological. PIE 'kor' simply means people, crowd. PIE 'kory' means army or warriors and greek 'kouroi' depicts young males, either nude or half clad. It's a very common root in IE languages: Celtic 'cuire'; Baltic 'karia'; O.Pers kāra and there are many derivatives in the germanic branch from P. Germanic 'xarja' eg. Gothic 'harji', O. Fris 'here'; O. Sax 'heri'; O. Swed. 'harija'; O.Franc. 'heri' etc. each with its own usage. In O. Eng. for example, in the ASC, generally 'here' is used to mean invading vikings. To claim that Tacitus' Harii identifies a specific group of naked young males with some distinct role is rather tenuous, it could be any type of warrior, especially as there are other accounts in other geographic locations of warriors being scantily clad during different periods and the observation that many were young is not surprising. Even if true and armies did have a contingent of eager young beavers ready to prove themselves unprotected in battle, it is odd that we don't get accounts of 'harii' in the west. Furthermore it is a great speculative step to link them with the Einherjar 1000 years later in the sense of continuity of a cult. Rather, a continuity of practice would be more plausible. It may have simply been a custom, a 'proving ground' for the young men and without any religious significance.

Having said that I still find a tribal name, derived from the same root, more likely than a specific warrior type or a warrior cult.

best
authun

[Redwald]

"Redwald's favourite topic......."

Mmmmm. This could be libelous!


Paul

[authun]

"Redwald's favourite topic......."

Mmmmm. This could be libelous!


Paul

I refer to the excessive dose of posts on the Heruls that you were subjected to on another forum which resulted in topic rejection. You can have too much of a good thing :-)

best
authun