Point based Reenactment/events - a concept

[damianlz]

Please excuse me if this is the wrong section, id be happy to move it but at the moment this is the reenactment threads so here we go

**Before reading!**
Please note that this is only an idea and a discussion on a concept and by no way do I think it should be enforced or am I demanding it be put into place, I only wish to discuss and gain opinion on this concept. This is by no means meant to make people snort milk and throw their newspaper (although it is fun)


- also, this is being written as I think it and so if it comes off story'ish or disjointed I sincerely apologise)


Okay, so coming from a wargaming background and having half a year experience of being with the SCA I began to think about the days when we would have big events or public shows, and the commitment that people were making to it. One issue that always Irked me was that some people were put down because their 'garb' wasnt authentic enough, but their armor crafting was fantastic, or when one someone was told that cooking with tongs wasnt exactly period, despite all the ingredients and other efforts they were putting into practice.. now, good or bad attitudes aside It made me think - what if some events were run much the same as wargaming with a point level requirement to attend, or be ranked at events.

FOR example, just say there is a public stall or small show being put on and it was put at a 30 point level requirement (to put on a good show). An attendant who brings their own armor gets 10 points, helmet 10, tunic 10 and sandals 5, has ticked of 35 points and is legible to attend that event. Another reenactor though would have roman glass 15, tunic 10, prop coins 5 and with a total of 30 points is also able to attend but pull their points from other sources

Now at first this seems like its making demands but It made me think that it could help organize events, or hardcore events/marches etc where people are putting a lot of effort into their gear (evidently if you see my pictures i dont fall into that category) and would like to have an event for those who are at the same level. The system also shouldn't be made to keep people out who are new, BUT would make it a lot easier for them to organise a start, someone wanting to join a legionary group that needs a minimum of 40 points could shoot for hand made armor, sandles and a toga and now qualify at minimum for events.

To counter people going ALL OUT on armor but wearing jeans and a tank top, minimum requirements could also be made like in wargaming (etc a minimum of 10 points must be attained in clothing).

The point system should encourage and award creativity and at no stage penalise anyone aside from bad practices. Incorrect mountings on armor might see a point or so off the armor (4 points instead of 5) and hand crafted armor would see bonuses (+3 additional points) , and at NO POINT can anyone be penalized for Medical or dietary needs because at no point should we be putting reenactment infront of someones life,regardless of the point level (keep your stinking leeches)



Rough ideas/Rules
-The organiser has final say and may add/subtract bonuses as they see fit. But must have good reason for doing so.
-The requirements may be subject to additional necessities from the organizers group
-An attendant may exceed the minimum requirement by any point amount
-An attendant must have a minimum of 5 points spent from the clothing category

Categories
Arms
Hand Forged +4 points (per piece)
Armor - 10 Points

Clothing
Toga
Food
Building
Tools
Artifacts
Knowledge & Art
.etc.

So if this sounds horrid let me know, I was thinking of developing this more, but outside of animation and writing wargaming rules I dont know if I could run a roman reenactment group. Im just curious how you all see this, especially if you have had experience running events or attending them.

Damo

[Magnus]

I agree with you, I don't think anyone should ever be made to feel inferior because of their kit, whether they are posting pictures of it, or showing up at an event. Took me a long time to get over that attitude personally. Unfortunately, there are many people like that here on this forum. It's a shame, I think a lot of people can get the wrong impression about reenacting because of this attitude. Few people appreciate elitists, especially when they live in glass houses. 8-)

The problem you will have is that a) no-one will agree on a standard for awarding the points, and b) you may still be excluding people if they are without certain kit, or certain kit that is "authentic" enough.

Events, at least the ones I go to, already have a generalized set of rules regarding kit to bring/utilize, usually given out by the host unit.

I think your point system is already in place, just without it being official, or people actually assigning points to things.

Oh, and I've heard of some events where safety/medical issues are apparently trumped by supposed authenticity....rediculous.

And you can easily run your own group...we all started somewhere remember.

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

Just change it into turn based re-enactment battles and have kids roll Giant dice on the playing field which has to be divided into hexagons...

M.VIB.M.

[damianlz]

Could we ! please?! And they can stab each other when they stop their movement. The first roman event in international waters!

I am going to paste this from another dicussion I've bene having.

I can understand the desire for accuracy and cohesion in reenactment but I found as a new guy browsing through gatheringsit was always the groups that were well structured, full of open minded and helpful people and ,most importantly, developing groups that had the greatest and most loyal numbers. Thats what got me thinking about the point system, it allowed for a straight forward and structured approach for new kids, rather than someone running off, coming back to the group with gear and having him be picked apart for it. It also allowed for someone to join or leave our group to another group using the point based system and still be legible for events.

regarding the standard of kit I think that some standards can be determined and laid out, if there was a large community imput I think we could reach a somewhat generalized expectation (agreed there will be screams, crying, tantrums, biting etc but that seems to occur in every internet discussion regardless)

[Magnus]

I'll elaborate in my other message to you Damo, but basically there is a bottom line standard, and that's Matt Amt's Legionaries Handbook. I would say that the vast majority of events I've been to with multiple groups are using that as a baseline for accurate gear. There is also a Tactical Manaul, very well done that is also being generally accepted by most groups in N. America so that helps us out with drill and tactics. (I'll send u the links).

Now, some people get irritated when people are using out-dated gear, or inaccurate gear, and I can understand that. BUT I'd rather those people show up and have fun, and continue to work towards getting better gear than be shunned, which sometimes happens. It takes a while, and not everyone can afford or make the required stuff. Sometimes people in error purchase the wrong gear, and it may take a while to save up for something better. In any case, you will always have your gear snobs who flick their teeth at you. I have a nice solution for them, which I won't repeat here. :twisted:

[Marcus Octavian]

Being in the SCA myself, I have seen/heard these forms of...lets call it debates, on too many occasions to remember.
As many times as I can actually remember, there has never really been a conclusion/solution given that can encompass the wide variety of participants at an SCA event. Someone is ALWAYS excluded, or made to feel small.
I do agree that there should in fact be a standard minimum so as to keep the atmosphere for others, but some people, as much as they would love to be in a full kit...well when you're broke, you're broke. lol
For instance, at Pennsic years ago, I had "messed up" one of my caliga. (Something about a drunken occurrence with a tent stake) I decided I would take it up to one of the many leather people there to see if it could be fixed. Not wanting to walk that distance barefoot, I threw on my mundane boots to walk up to the vendor area. ( I camp down in the swamp for those that have been there)By the time I reached the vendors, I had received no less than 20 backhand remarks about my choice in footgear, and was even told I should be ashamed for not trying harder.
But, last year at Pennsic, it seemed that being in full kit/garb was the oddity. Now when I was given flak about my mundane boots, I felt that was a bit over the top given circumstances, but now...War seems more of a local renfaire than anything. Green haired girls wearing a leather bodice, booty shorts, furry tall boots, with some slip on fairy wings running around with fellas wearing the latest in fashion saggy jean shorts and Nike basketball shoes seemed to be everywhere.
So in closing to my stupid long rambling post...yes, I agree with a minimum standard, but don't quite know how it could be done, nor by who's standards it should be graded.
After all...who polices the police?

[Nurglitch]

Sorry, but antiquity period reenactment is THE cheapest and easiest to get into. You can make a pair of basic shoes and a basic tunic within 40 pounds or you can buy them within 90. There's not a single cheaper period. Getting into larping is more expensive. Getting into drinking is more expensive. In fact getting into taking a bus to work/school is more expensive and so is getting into playing games on a console. Basically if someone does not have the basic kit it means they cannot be bothered to. And that's that.

[jvrjenivs]

Sorry, but antiquity period reenactment is THE cheapest and easiest to get into. You can make a pair of basic shoes and a basic tunic within 40 pounds or you can buy them within 90. There's not a single cheaper period.

Well, I don't agree. The ancient period is way more expensive as is for instance 14th or 15th century work! Of course it's all about what you can and like to spend, which determines how expensive the hobby is. No matter what period or hobby it is.

And to get back to the main question, I also agree there is already such a system, only not defined as such. Although the situation in the USA might be a bit different, in Europe most serious events have a good board of knowledgeable people from the field who discuss which groups are going to attend. These groups are selected on quality on the whole and of individual members and other 'points of interest' as defined by the organiser. This means, that these groups also have something to stick to and have their intern standards. New members are encouraged to come up to that standard as soon as possible, given their possibilities.

So, well, I think that if you're invited for the important (big) events in Europe, you know you're well up the standard, and if not, there is some room to improve, if you would like to join these events.

Making a hard system for this is difficult. As Matt already mentioned you will never get any consensus about how to set the point scale, as there are also many views on what is important. And I also think it's not only about kit, also about attitude, knowledge, 'esprit de corps', etc.

[Nurglitch]

Well, I don't agree. The ancient period is way more expensive as is for instance 14th or 15th century work!

And the expensive part in ancient period is a... what? For the price of decent XIV-XV shoes you can get ancient shoes and a tunic which comprise a full basic kit.

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

Just to make things clear, the SAMURAI period is the most expensive period to re-enact.

Apart from the flight crew of WWII, if you also have a P-51 or B-25 to maintain...

M.VIB.M.

[jvrjenivs]

Well, I don't agree. The ancient period is way more expensive as is for instance 14th or 15th century work!

And the expensive part in ancient period is a... what? For the price of decent XIV-XV shoes you can get ancient shoes and a tunic which comprise a full basic kit.

Well, a basic kit comprises more as a tunic and some pair of shoes. And ancient shoes also can become rather expensive. Medieval clothing can be much more expensive as ancient tunicae and toga. When thinking of arms and armour, ancient stuff is also much more expensive.

[Nurglitch]

Well, a basic kit comprises more as a tunic and some pair of shoes.

Please, name the other parts necessary for the basic kit.

And ancient shoes also can become rather expensive.

Everything can become as expensive as you want it to. It would probably cost a few billions to make Steve Jobs knit you a tunic But I'm talking about the price of basic kit. The simplest carbatinae cost ca 30GBP. You can make them yourself for around 10-15GBP.

Medieval clothing can be much more expensive as ancient tunicae and toga. When thinking of arms and armour, ancient stuff is also much more expensive.

Toga is not a part of basic kit. Arms and armour are not parts of basic kit. The basic kit is the very minimum you need. The minimum for antiquity is a tunica and shoes. You can even go without the shoes at a pinch. For any medieval period your basic kit comprises of at least three diffetent parts of clothing covering your whole body and shoes - much better and more expensive than carbatinae.

But if you want to go up, the segmentata will cost you 180GBP which is something like 1/3 of the price a medieval chain mail. All in all you can have very decent kit for around 500GBP which is less than the price of medieval mail alone. I guess you could find something cheaper than antiquity - if you were prepared to run around naked as a neanderthal or a hippie. But in mainstream reenactment antiquity makes it terribly easy to get the basic kit together. There isn't a good excuse for not doing it.

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

This entire discussion is ridiculous. You pay as much as you like yourself for this hobby. If you have a Tunic and Caligae, and borrow armour from the society it is cheap, but when you want elaborate things and have every piece silvered or with gold inlay you will pay more.

Nothing important at all, just like the entire discussion of who looks better.

Basics are to get it right, whatever the cost, and if that means no more deepeeka muck then so be it.

Geez i really am getting a bit miffed by this useless discussion.

You both are right and wrong.

M.VIB.M.

[Robert Vermaat]

For any medieval period your basic kit comprises of at least three different parts of clothing covering your whole body and shoes - much better and more expensive than carbatinae.

But if you want to go up, the segmentata will cost you 180GBP which is something like 1/3 of the price a medieval chain mail. All in all you can have very decent kit for around 500GBP which is less than the price of medieval mail alone. I guess you could find something cheaper than antiquity - if you were prepared to run around naked as a neanderthal or a hippie. But in mainstream reenactment antiquity makes it terribly easy to get the basic kit together. There isn't a good excuse for not doing it.

I think you are rather unfair in this discussion, by comparing good quality to bad quality.
First of all, stating that "any medieval period your basic kit comprises of at least three different parts of clothing covering your whole body and shoes" is incorrect - I could easily imagine a poor civilian from say 600 AD in less of those 3. Depends on where, how rich, etc. I see not much difference there between a poor civilian in any Ancient period from such a Medieval period.
Also, your comparison between what your estimate of what would be 'very decent kit' to 'medieval mail' is also probably not based on a good knowledge about what would be considered 'decent kit' for any Ancient period. Why would Medieval mail be so much more expensive than 'decent' Roman mail for instance? Buying a Deepeeka set of mail is not what I would consider 'decent' kit. Decent kit, if you are indeed talking about an armoured infantryman, with cost you a lot more than 'just' 500 GBP (clothing, shoes, armour, helmet, sword, pilum, scutum, belt, cingulum, sagum plus personal gear).

But all this derogatory discussing what any period costs or not is totally beside the point when you are discussing what a decent re-enactor should bring along to an event. All this points stuff is only relating to equipment. I don't think that's what's important at all. What you need is a good attitude. I have seen many re-enactors loaded with expensive stuff, but still doing a very bad job, while on the other hand some people can portray a superb image of history whilst only wearing simple filthy clothing. Attitude is what it's all about. Knowing your personality, 'living' your personality, is what makes history come alive. Not a load of bling-bling.

[Magnus]

This entire discussion is ridiculous....<snip>
Geez i really am getting a bit miffed by this useless discussion.

You both are right and wrong.

M.VIB.M.

LOL...well said Henk.