Good to see another European country so mesmerised by Greece's history, they need to steal
it to develop their own identity! Greece Rocks!
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
People should not carry too much past with them. When nations are too interested in ancient or medieval history, international relations invariably go from bad to worse.
Jona Lendering Relevance is the enemy of history My website
Quote:People should not carry too much past with them. When nations are too interested in ancient or medieval history, international relations invariably go from bad to worse.
Oh yes, a nation feeling a shared "pothos" is usually geared for war, as we all know from history. Anyway a great statue :grin: !
I think there are other instances of a famous person from history being used by multiple countries for modern-day promotion. Don't both Italy and Croatia claim Marco Polo?
The Greeks should stop acting so childish about the Macedonians using Alexander the Great for their own benefit. Alexander the Great was NOT EVEN Greek ! he was MACEDONIAN ! who cares if the original country lay somewhere in the North regions of what now is the Greek country....
Quote:People should not carry too much past with them. When nations are too interested in ancient or medieval history, international relations invariably go from bad to worse.
Ah ha? And why are you then into this hobby? Sorry I can not agree on that statement at all. I find it very annoying when greedy contractors willingly destory ancient monuments just to make some fast cash with another exchangeable concrete monstrosity. I feel too many view things like that, and would love to erase anything dealing with history so that they have no obstractions in making fast profits. I would prefer that people remember history, to not make the same mistakes again as in the past, and to remember that todays modern comforts stand on the shoulders of the past.
Jona Lendering post=290516 Wrote:People should not carry too much past with them. When nations are too interested in ancient or medieval history, international relations invariably go from bad to worse.
And why are you then into this hobby?
Because I like it. Other people like rock & roll, or movies. There's nothing wrong with that. History does not need to be nationalistic history to be interesting, does it?
"Lessons from the past" are, as I see it, impossible to draw, because situations are never completely identical. We may try to get around it by accepting that there is a kind of structure in the past itself, a structure that we can understand. However, that would essentially be a form of ontological holism. There's a good chapter on it here. Unfortunately, politicians won't read it.
Jona Lendering Relevance is the enemy of history My website
In danger of being labeled a nationalist, this article is total crap... Anyways, this is not supposed to be yet another thread we discuss this question. If someone wants to reopen this discussion because the previous relevant threads are lacking somewhere, please do so.
As far as this particular action is concerned, it is another open provocation of FYRoM towards Greece. No matter what anyone's position is, this state has long been advised to abstain from such inimical and politically provocative actions and it chooses to make things even worse... It is only understandable that this will produce even more tension and hatred, which seems to be this state's politicians' goal anyways.
So, I will not say anything about history. I will only say that politically this and all such actions (many indeed) taken by the sovereign state of FYRoM can only be viewed as directly provocative and will undoubtedly add to the political problem between the two states and the two peoples.
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George C. K.
῾Ηρακλῆος γὰρ ἀνικήτου γένος ἐστέ
I agree that a link to modern nationalism poisons history. The truth rarely fits nationalistic myth. And there is no law that only one tribe today can claim a particular historical figure.
Quote:"Lessons from the past" are, as I see it, impossible to draw, because situations are never completely identical. We may try to get around it by accepting that there is a kind of structure in the past itself, a structure that we can understand. However, that would essentially be a form of ontological holism. There's a good chapter on it here. Unfortunately, politicians won't read it.
I think that's a bit strong, because we learn from the past every day (unless we stop trying to do better than we did before!) In the military sphere, we see this regularly: the crusaders choosing different routes based on the success or failure of earlier expeditions, Pizarro imitating Cortez imitating a hundred medieval conquerors, Tamurlane following the path of earlier Turkish and Mongol conquerors, Machiavelli looking to the Romans for a solution to Florence's military weaknesses, the British and French and Germans preparing for the next war after 1919. Human behavior in any time and place follows certain patterns ... but picking out the right ones and predicting their effects is a matter of instinct not proof.
Nullis in verba
I have not checked this forum frequently since 2013, but I hope that these old posts have some value. I now have a blog on books, swords, and the curious things humans do with them.
Quote:The Greeks should stop acting so childish about the Macedonians using Alexander the Great for their own benefit. Alexander the Great was NOT EVEN Greek ! he was MACEDONIAN ! who cares if the original country lay somewhere in the North regions of what now is the Greek country....
M.VIB.M.
Stating out in the beginning of this post that i am a Greek,so that anybody can judge the bias of my post, i this this message is totally wrong in every single word.
Yet i fear that commenting on it in depth will get too much political even for the off topic section.
So, the Greeks are acting childish on this topic? Anyone who has a basic knowlege of the history of this debate will know that the Skopian acts since decades are something more than childish,the last insident included. Not regarding the historical debate, provocations such as this in a such delicate (and it is very delicate matter to deal with peoples' nationalism) matter are much worse than childish.
"Using Alexander the Great for their own benefit"? Appart from gaining wisdom, which other benefit should a country enjoy from the use of historical persons? (not talking about historical monuments here)
And Alexander the Great was not even Greek, he was Macedonian!!!? So you solved the debate of Centuries in one frase!!? Because exactly this is the basis of the debate. Whay Alexander couldn't be a Greek by being a Macedonian? Why couldn't Aristagoras be a Greek by being a Milesian? and so on. What kind of statement is this,that Alexander was not EVEN a greek?
"who cares if the original country lay somewhere in the North regions of what now is the Greek country" well let me say that a great deal of people care! Including historians. So don't be so dismissive as if everything is so obvious that doesn't even worth our attention!
Khaire
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
It all started out with the flag debate of Macedonia... Same ridiculousness with the Greek-Turkish debate.. For me its simple. Those areas were all conquered by Rome, so they are Roman. Your food is Roman, pita giros is comparable to Döner kebap. You both eat olives, feta and sheep. If you really take it so serious you become the laughing stock of the (Roman) world. Of course Alexander was Macedonian, and his country lay in Present day Greece. Of course Alexander used the Greek heritage to become a success. But even after his reign failed, the Greeks still fought amongst each other with fierce determination. Rome put a stop to that. The chances are that if present day Greece fails in the EU fights like that might return. You do not learn. Nationality and National feelings are in my opinion the most ridiculous feelings anyone can have. I am proud to feel Roman. I dont feel Dutch, European or anything else. I am a Roman with a Japanese Samurai mind.
All this bickering about who is what and why the republic of Macedonia should not be allowed to put up a statue of Alexander the Great is in my eyes total and utter nonsense. Who the f**k cares anyway !
Sort out your own country, hunger and wars first. Stop poverty and the emptying of the seas. Stop nuclear energy, save the rainforest and the environment, stop selfishness and be HUMAN first of all.
Then, when all problems in the world are solved, start thinking about your own identity and nationality again...
M.VIB.M.
(the really funny thing is of course that the Skopians make their own Macedonian stories up NOT to piss of Greece, but to piss off the SERBS !!!!!!! ) however, the Serbs do not really care anymore, they have enough problems as it is already.
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