I would like to propose what is (as far as I know) a novel variation on the leathering of segmentata shoulder lames. I feel this method is compatible with or possibly even a closer match for depictions of segmentata in contemporary artwork, and is still consistent with known archaeological findings.
In essence, I propose a refinement to the "all straps equal" method presented and observed in all other reconstructions I have encountered. By varying the spacing of holes in the front and rear leathers (not the holes in the plates!) with regard to the central leather, one can achieve a more natural curvature of the lesser shoulders regardless of the suppleness or thickness of leather used.
Full rambling details and more pictures are available in a post on my segmentata construction blog.
Edit: Here is a diagram (not to scale) which might allow some people to better visualize what's going on. Check the rest of the thread for more pictures.
[attachment=1436]sketch.GIF[/attachment]
Arm Raised Vs. Arm at rest
[attachment=1437]Sketch2.gif[/attachment]
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Ross
[url="http://galeforcearmoury.blogspot.com"] Working on a segmentata.[/url]
If you are talking about Legio X -- I'm not very good with Dutch, but I couldn't find any pictures on their website which show differentially tensioned shoulder leathers. I did, however, notice one edge-on picture which exhibits the "stepped" pattern that I mentioned on my blog.
Did I miss something?
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Ross
[url="http://galeforcearmoury.blogspot.com"] Working on a segmentata.[/url]
Ventus my friend,
I must give you some advice, which might not be helpful, but I would like to help you or understand things, but it all seems a little too confusing :-? Maybe I'm just too simple. I understand what you're doing it kinda hard, so I see good progress. It's looking very good, and a big improvement since the last update!
Further good luck, and I'm trying to keep up with ya!
Can you still raise your arm with this configuration? If yes, then it's "right". I don't *think* (though I freely admit I'm not an expert in this) there's much archeological evidence about the respective strap length, but it follows that the armor worked for the user, or they would have done something different, yes?
There is a new post on my blog with additional details, but here's the most important part:
Below: Series of pictures demonstrating how the leathers flex when you raise your arm. Note how the front & rear leathers stay flat and relaxed - only the central leather has to move. You could optimize this by using a thicker leather on the front & rear and a thinner one centrally.
[attachment=1439]flex0.JPG[/attachment]
[attachment=1440]flex1.JPG[/attachment]
[attachment=1441]flex2.JPG[/attachment]
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Ross
[url="http://galeforcearmoury.blogspot.com"] Working on a segmentata.[/url]
that is one damn awesome illustration there!!! Now a meter stick :oops: Ventus, good work, good luck on the other half. Can't wait till you make the real thing, if you want to make a sword sometime, I have a little big explanation of my handle on the brass work topic. I'm just waiting for any comments as I'm a little conscious about it :oops: also, with my cardboard cut out, I made the shoulder blades in the diagram shown of 4 small plates gradually getting wider to the shoulder on Legio XX's site, um, this didn't work as it exposed too much, the "longest weren't long enough, so I'll have to do two short and two long, like your shoulder unit.
I don't deny for a minute that other people have been successful at producing a very similar or even identical "look", that would be completely silly! :mad: The difference is in how I achieved that look! The fact that a leather subarmalis can pad your shoulders just the same as a linen one doesn't mean that they are the same thing.
What I think is interesting is that my method appears to be more tolerant of mistakes. My before/after picture illustrates this perfectly - the only thing I changed was the location of holes in the straps and it turned a faulty and inflexible shoulder into a functional and appropriate one. Given that Mike Bishop describes most reconstructions as over-engineered and/or superior in attention to details than the originals, you could argue that this method is far more likely to have been used historically... because even a monkey like me can do it!
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Ross
[url="http://galeforcearmoury.blogspot.com"] Working on a segmentata.[/url]
With respect Ross, I beleive any requirement you have for trying this is due to misunderstanding how to put a seggie together. I never premarked any of the holes on the strapping like you did. I dont think it states to do this on the legio xx site either. It makes no sense.
I assemble my shoulder guards thus: take the smallest plate, rivet the straps on (all three). Take the next plate and punch the hole for the centre rivet. Line the two plates up so they overlap and cover the rivets. Take the centre strap and hold it against the hole on the next plate. Mark it with a pencil then punch a hole in the strap. Rivet it to the plate...repeat fot the two side straps and the other plates.
Basically you work from the bottom up, measuring and making strap holes as you go. You cant prepunch the holes and expect the shoulder guards to hang correctly.
You dont need to reinvent the wheel, you need to simply construct it properly.
____________________________________________________________ Magnus/Matt
Du Courage Viens La Verité
Matt, thank you for the advice, but I guess I must have miscommunicated somewhere along the line -- I have never pre-cut holes on the straps. The method you describe is exactly what I did, and the first time I even had the plates flat while I was doing it.
If you look through my blog (currently second post from the top) you can even see the pictures of me assembling it the same way the second time, when the plates were already bent.
Edit: In case it wasn't clear, I had the disassemble the shoulder a second time (i.e. after taking the "AFTER" picture) to take that picture of the straps with the new and old holes.
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Ross
[url="http://galeforcearmoury.blogspot.com"] Working on a segmentata.[/url]
When you assembled the shoulder guard plates the first time...do you mean you hadn't bent the plates into curves yet? If so, that is probably why they dont hang as well. And thanks for not being offended with my last post, i was hoping it wouldnt come across that way.
____________________________________________________________ Magnus/Matt
Du Courage Viens La Verité
Ross.
I know this has nothing to do with your segmentata straps but from what I see you are useing bolts with nuts instead of some kind of rivets to hold the straps, one would hope that this is not how the finished armour is going end up and be worn.
I have been making segmentata and all kinds of armour now for over 30 years and what I find is the best kind of thing for holding all the leathers is clout nails, these are softer galvenised felt nails they are cheaper and much easier to use than rivets.
With a gentle countersink of all the drill holes on the outer side of all the plates these nails can be put thro' the straps, where the heads of the nails are against the leather then peen down the nail shank into the countersink on the outer side of the plates.
Then also you have washers inbetween that give a gap where a sword blade point could go thro' and stab anywhere these gaps should not be there.
![[Image: 2611_NS_Roman-Tech-7_04700300.jpg]](http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/staticfiles/NGC/StaticFiles/Images/Show/26xx/261x/2611_NS_Roman-Tech-7_04700300.jpg)
![[Image: Romans440x300%20CR%20www.gardian.co.uk.jpg]](http://www.limestonelandscapes.info/Images_Gallery/Romans440x300%20CR%20www.gardian.co.uk.jpg)
![[Image: 120238921_3d0bab80d8.jpg]](http://farm1.static.flickr.com/47/120238921_3d0bab80d8.jpg)
