Spartan cloaks and clasps

[joeandmich]

Can anyone shed some light on the measurements of Spartan cloaks? Does anyone know the type of clasp they would have used?

Thanks

[joeandmich]

Nobody has an opinion on this?

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Don't get too surprized. We really know so little about the Spartans! Far less than what is generally believed.
Khaire
Giannis

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

The only thing we know is that the colour was purpur. Sizes or clasps are unknown.

M.VIB.M.

[joeandmich]

Did they use clamys style cloaks? Any suggestion would help.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Well,as i said on the other thread, Spartans were Greeks,and in Greece the military cloak was the chlamys. You wouldn't find a chlamys at a symposium at Athens, perhaps not even in the assembly, but you would see travellers, youths and soldiers in it. It is only logical that Spartans would have used it. There is no other cloak shown in greek art that seems comfortable and "warlike" enough.
The question is if it was the chlamys the famous scarlet Spartan cloak, and to this question there is no answer. The ONLY Spartan statuette that shows a cloaked hoplite, has a full body cloak, ankle long, without a pin, and the soldier is not at a fighting posture.His right hand is hidden under it ad his left might or might not have once held a shield. Could have been a spear or stick instead.
So, was the red spartan cloak a chlamys or a himation? If the former, there is some chance they wore it in battle, if the latter, there is no chance.
Hoplites in attik art are some times shown wearing a himation, but again usually in not fighting postures.
The word used to describe the Spartan clothes is "stola" which has been hotly debated to mean either a cloak or a uniform. If the latter, then the Sartan cloak is a myth! A uniform can consist on a chiton and other elements, but not necessarily a coak worn in battle.
Confused enough? I hope so!
Khaire
Giannis

[joeandmich]

Thanks Giannis

[Ghostmojo]

Clasps and cloaks would have been made by perioikoi artisans anyway. Regarding the former, I guess there would have been simple ones and more elaborate ones. Individual Spartan wealth varied and until any point when (and if) the state actually took over the issue of all of this materiel - my guess is that a wide variety would have appeared.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Indeed. Although i can easily imagine cloaks and clothing being woven by Spartan women. After all it was a job fit for queens! Athena was weaving, also Penelope, and i can't remember if there was a mention of Hellen (the ultimate Spartan woman) weaving.
Khaire
Giannis

[Ghostmojo]

Spartan women of the Spartiate class had considerably more freedom than other Greek ladies, and almost certainly more leisure time. Girls grew up at home with their mothers and learnt relevant domestic chores. They tended to marry later than other Greek females (by the standards of the day) and probably had more opportunity to gain some education before this happened. It is possible that they indulged in some hunting (being taught the use of a javelin) and were as involved in the rearing of horses as were men.

This situation would probably have been somewhat different for Spartan women of the hypomeiones or mothakes orders, and of course these groups grew larger as time went on throughout the 4th and 3rd centuries BC. This is a grey area about which we can say little with any certainty, other than people had to survive and being barred from the homoioi classes would have both necessitated and allowed for taking on productive work.

Periokoi and Helotai women (doulai) did most of the weaving, although Spartan women did possess such skills and seemingly employed them more for the purposes of rituals. Alkman mentions ten girls who between them only wove one cloak (also ritual purposes). I'm sure these roles varied over the ages - certainly into the Hellenistic and later periods, but during the Archaic and Classical periods it seems to me unlikely that Spartan women of substance would have been involved in garmenting/equipping the menfolk. And of course the involvement in any labour that was designed for sale or profit was prohibited to homoioi and their womenfolk in equal measure. The short Spartan cloak was probably state-issued and created by perioikoi women to order.

Although Helen is allegedly Spartan - her mythical nature and pedigree make her both regal and probably pre-Heralklid. Therefore, she was more likely Akhaian and existing in a timeframe (if indeed she ever did) well before the days of the Lykourgan reforms. Helen was central to many Lakedaimonian cults and it is to Homer we owe our 'knowledge' about her talents for spinning and weaving.

[D B Campbell]

So, was the red spartan cloak a chlamys or a himation? If the former, there is some chance they wore it in battle, if the latter, there is no chance.

You are forgetting the tribôn, my friend! To all intents and purposes, a Spartan himation (e.g. Plut., Agesilaos 36.9). No sign of a chlamys at Sparta (imho). mile:

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

To my memory a tribon was a chiton, not a cloak, which Socrates was supposedly used to wearing, imitating the simply dressed Spartans. Its name could suggest a very rough material, although to be honest could also indicate a roughly used garment.
Is Plutarch saying that it was a cloak and not a chiton?
Khaire
Giannis

[Epictetus]

I think there is a possibility that the meaning of the term evolved from classic Spartan times to the Roman era. I did some research on this several months ago but couldn't come to any real conclusions, being hampered by an inability to understand either Greek or Latin.

[joeandmich]

Would this be an accurate depiction of a Spartan dressed for war?

This one appears to be a chlamys.

[attachment=1552]53AthensGames04.jpg[/attachment]

This one doesn't seem to look like a chlamys but more like a large cloak.

[attachment=1551]THEAGENewspaperArtic1.jpg[/attachment]

Opinions?

[Ghostmojo]

The guys in the top photo would self-evidently trip over such cloaks - certainly in combat, and possibly just walking along too! The bottom photo looks more credible.

Long cloaks like that would have been discarded beforehand, if indeed they were ever worn at all. It looks a bit Hollywood to me ...