3rd century Roman sword hilt (?)

[jho]

The only additional information I can provide is that it is supposed to be a find from a Roman context dated AD 180 - AD 230. My friend also pointed out to me similar decoration on two ring pommel swords, one being in a museum in Bern and the other from Poland.

The comment on size is interesting. Maybe it is from a statue after all.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Hmmm - I have to say that it does not remind me of the decoration used on any pugios or sheaths I am familiar with.

Crispvs

It is Crispus....it is...

[Crispvs]

Not sure what that was supposed to mean but I am sure it was not intended to be unfriendly.

"The "running dog" in silver along the edges is typical for pugio-decorations in inlay-technique in the first century (e.g. Melun), also the acanthus ranks and leaves are typical "Roman" (at that time) for inlay / niello works."

I hate to disagree with you Christian, but out of the entire corpus, I can only find three examples of first century pugio sheaths with wave patterns as part of their decoration, namely one from Vechten, one from Xanten and the one from Melun, which hardly makes it typical. Added to that the decoration on the Melun sheath is quite unlike that of any other known sheath, which is why I voiced no support for the proposal to make it the pattern chosen for the Deepeeka reconstruction. It should also be borne in mind that wave patterns can be found in the decorative styles of many different, often unrelated, cultures. The ancient Greeks used it, but then again, so did the Maoris. Therefore wave patterns cannot be used to tie this piece to a Roman identification.
The point about acanthus leaves is a good one but I cannot call to mind an attested Roman example which depicts them in that way.

Of course, discussion of first century AD decorative styles is somewhat academic in this case as I think we are all agreed that the piece is late second century to mid third century AD, both from the way it is shaped and the reported context. Is anyone aware of another attestably Roman handle assembly though, which is made of metal as this one is? I can think of a number with metallic elements or decoration but I cannot think of any which are entirely metallic.

This then maintains the possibility that it may not be Roman but might be from one of their near neighbours or possibly even of more recent manufacture. I have been reminded by PM of the fact that in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries there was a great fashion for making 'classical' pieces of military kit. Of course an AD180 to 230 context would rule that out, but it would not rule out the manufacture by foreign artisans of a hilt the same shape as a contempory Roman one.

Crispvs

[richard robinson]

I was researching late spatha when I first joined RAT and there are links somewhere in old RAT that took you to Dutch (?) museums where there were a heap of late Roman/ migration period metal laden sword grips.
RAT is just brilliant
regards
Richard

[caiusbeerquitius]

Hey, Crispus,
not going into semantics, but I didn´t say it occurs frequently... ;-)
More often on niello/inlay ink pots from the time, I guess. Same for the acanthus.
Here´s Kuprice grave 106 in a nice repro by Patrik Barta:

Cheerio! c.

[jvrjenivs]

I was researching late spatha when I first joined RAT and there are links somewhere in old RAT that took you to Dutch (?) museums where there were a heap of late Roman/ migration period metal laden sword grips.
RAT is just brilliant
regards
Richard

http://www.geheugenvannederland.nl/ contains a good database with pictures of items from many Dutch museums, including the whole Roman collection of the Rijksmuseum van oudheden, Leiden, which can also be found on their own website

[noxia]

Hello,
this piece is really outstanding. Concerning the decoration it reminds me of the scabbard slides with niello decoration (Rollenkopfbügel) and even more of the chapes (tauschierte Dosenortbänder) like this specimen from Augsburg:
http://www.romancoins.info/DSC_0321.JPG

Have a look at Miks, Studien zur römischen Schwertbewaffnung, there the author depicts also some cingulum plates with such decoration dating to the late 3rd century.

The length of the grip would not bother me, because the sword grips from Thorsberg have similar dimensions. One flat example is 18 cm long in total and its grip is only 7 cm long. It clearly was used as it shows signs of wear.

Jens, do you have some more pictures, perhaps from the bottom of the handguard or the top of the pommel? If this grip would be only decorational for a statue it would perhaps have no need of the hole for the hilt.

If you consider the really fine chapes from the 3rd century out of silver with this kind of decoration, why not combine them with such a sword grip?

Regards
noxia

[noxia]

the Thorsberg grip is this one:
[attachment=2158]M2-5-R0001a.jpg[/attachment]

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Not sure what that was supposed to mean but I am sure it was not intended to be unfriendly.
Why would I be unfriendly, unless provoked? hock: Mad Dog syndrome is not an exclusively English condition you know! :mrgreen:


"The "running dog" in silver along the edges is typical for pugio-decorations in inlay-technique in the first century (e.g. Melun), also the acanthus ranks and leaves are typical "Roman" (at that time) for inlay / niello works."

I hate to disagree with you Christian, but out of the entire corpus, I can only find three examples of first century pugio sheaths with wave patterns as part of their decoration, namely one from Vechten, one from Xanten and the one from Melun, which hardly makes it typical. Added to that the decoration on the Melun sheath is quite unlike that of any other known sheath, which is why I voiced no support for the proposal to make it the pattern chosen for the Deepeeka reconstruction. It should also be borne in mind that wave patterns can be found in the decorative styles of many different, often unrelated, cultures. The ancient Greeks used it, but then again, so did the Maoris. Therefore wave patterns cannot be used to tie this piece to a Roman identification.

Maybe not on its own, but looking at the style of grip, and the wave and the acanthus leaves, why would it have to be not Roman? And 3 Examples are more than some other examples of other items.

The point about acanthus leaves is a good one but I cannot call to mind an attested Roman example which depicts them in that way.

Of course, discussion of first century AD decorative styles is somewhat academic in this case as I think we are all agreed that the piece is late second century to mid third century AD, both from the way it is shaped and the reported context. Is anyone aware of another attestably Roman handle assembly though, which is made of metal as this one is? I can think of a number with metallic elements or decoration but I cannot think of any which are entirely metallic.

But there is a Mainz Gladius with an all Silver Grip, Pommel and guard.

This then maintains the possibility that it may not be Roman but might be from one of their near neighbours or possibly even of more recent manufacture. I have been reminded by PM of the fact that in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries there was a great fashion for making 'classical' pieces of military kit. Of course an AD180 to 230 context would rule that out, but it would not rule out the manufacture by foreign artisans of a hilt the same shape as a contempory Roman one.

Yes, possibly even for a Roman client? Or as a Gift for a Roman.
Crispvs

[Crispvs]

I think you are probably thinking of the Mainz type gladius from Rheingoenheim. This actually had a normal Mainz type grip which was covered with silver sheet as I understand it.

I think I should say here that I was not trying to suggest that it could not be Roman - its form certainly suggests that it is. Its decoration is also appears to be within the known range of Roman decoration for the period in question. What I was questioning really was whether there were any attestably Roman handle assemblages known from late second to mid third century AD contexts which are composed of solid metal components. This is why I decided to float the flimsy idea that it might have come from one of Rome's near neighbours.

"And 3 Examples are more than some other examples of other items."

True, but there are actually quite a lot of pugios, pugio handles and sheaths. In that particular context, three examples really is quite a small number. But all this discussion of my pet subject is actually a distraction. The item under discussion is not a part of a pugio and it does not come from a first century AD context. Therefore I would propose that we cease any further mention of first century AD pugios in this thread. If people really do want a discussion of the decorative schemes used on pugios, then perhaps a new thread should be started for it. :wink:

Crispvs