Linothorax vs Spolas

[Thomas V.]

Food for Thought and User-Introduction

Hello,

my name is Thomas and I am from Southern Germany. As I am intersted in ancient arms and armour, I joined the RAT-Community today. I was impressed by the knowledge of the users and the wealth of information.

Anyway... I wanna recreate a T&Y-Cuirass someday. So I was browsing the web, looking for informations on the subject.

I found a interessting source, that might corroborate the theory, that the infamous T&Y-Armour was made out of leather ("Spolas").

The mentioned source is a book called "Schutzwaffen der Skythen" ("defensive arms of the Scythians"), by Evgenij V. Cernenko. Cernenko states that the (bronze) scales were (almost always) attached to leather ("Als Unterlage verwendete man meist Leder,...), wich was veg-tanned("Das Leder bearbeitete man mit pflanzlichen Gerbstoffen,..."). I am aware of the fact that Scythian armour is not Greek armour. But if you look at the Solocha Comb http://img304.imageshack.us/img304/2428/kamm8zf.jpg , one will recognize, that the leather-and-scale armour of the Scythians was cut like the Greek T&Y-Cuirass (e.g. shoulder flaps and pteryges). Cernenko even uses this well-known picture http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o118/...gscene.jpg to show his readers how the scale-covered leather fragments might have looked like back then.

PS: I am sorry for my English. I have not wrote any English texts for four years now.

[Dan Howard]

Hi Thomas, welcome. Your English is excellent BTW.

How can you tell what is used as a backing for the scales in an illustration? We can't even tell what the scales are made from. I suspect that leather was used for Scythian armour but we can't assume that without physical evidence. Do we have a surviving example of Scythian scale armour from the relevant time period that has been backed with leather? I know about the rawhide one in the MET but it is too late to be relevant. Are there others?

I'm also unsure about using Scythian manufacture to support Greek manufacture. A nomadic tribe has a lot of hide available and not much in the way of woven textiles. If hide is plentiful and they had to import textiles, then one would expect most of their clothing to be made from hide. Greece had a thriving textile industry. Throughout history you can correlate soft armour with the prominant type of clothing. If they had a lot of textile clothing (e.g. western Europe) then most of the soft armours were made from textle. If they had a lot of hide clothing (e.g. Asian steppes) then most of the soft armour was made from hide.

[MeinPanzer]

I suspect that leather was used for Scythian armour but we can't assume that without physical evidence. Do we have a surviving example of Scythian scale armour from the relevant time period that has been backed with leather? I know about the rawhide one in the MET but it is too late to be relevant. Are there others?

Yes, we do. I know of several pieces, including a few housed in the Ashmolean Museum, ranging from shin protection to a shoulder piece from a cuirass. But as you state, this doesn't help us at all because this is Scythian armour, not Greek.

[Thomas V.]

Hi Dan,

thanks for Your reply.

"How can you tell what is used as a backing for the scales in an illustration?"
I did not base my statement that the scales were attached to leather on an illustration.
I rather based it on the textual source cited above. I admit that i have expressed myself quite misleading, as I only wrote the corresponding key words in an italic manner instead of translating the German quote into English. "Als Unterlage verwendete man meist Leder, (...)." means: "In most cases leather was used as a base, (...)." A longer quote: "Als Unterlage verwendete man meist Leder, (...). Gewöhnlich befestigte man die Schuppen direkt auf der Unterlage, (...)." ("In most cases leather was used as a base, (...). Usally the the scales were sewn straight to the base, (...).").

"We can't even tell what the scales are made from."
According to Chernenko there three kinds of Scythian scales: iron (224 of the cuirasses), bronzze (43 of the cuirasses), bone (only 4 of the cuirasses).

"Do we have a surviving example of Scythian scale armour from the relevant time period that has been backed with leather?"
21 of the bronze ones are from the fifth century. As I only have access to the Google-Books-preview-version, I do not know how much of the 21 cuirass remains consist of the scales and leather or only of the scales. Within the few pages you can read on Google Books Chernenko mentions bronze scales attached to leather a few times. But as I do not have the original book, I am not able to date these examples (one is from Makeevka, Kurgan 396 and one is from Volkovcy, Kurgan 2. An besides that, Chernenko mentions scales (without specifying the material) sewn to leather very often.

"I'm also unsure about using Scythian manufacture to support Greek manufacture."
I agree. You cannot tread Scythian artifacts like de-facto-Greek artifacts. You cannot use Scythian T&Y-armour as aprove for Greek T&Y-armour; but I think you can use them as a hint: same time frame, geographical proximity, same look (armour depicted on the Solocha Comb), cultural exchange regarding the military (Greek helmets used by Scythians, Scythian mercenaries within Greek armies).

I am by no means a "friend" of leather armour theories. I think that in a lot of cases reenactors just want to avoid metal working and the high ammounts of money you have to pay for certain metals (e.g. bronze).

But regarding the Greek T&Y-cuirass, I think, that leather ALSO (I do not preclude the unglued linen theory, by the way) was used. And i base my opinion on the book mentioned in my other post.

Regards,

Thomas

[MeinPanzer]

21 of the bronze ones are from the fifth century. As I only have access to the Google-Books-preview-version, I do not know how much of the 21 cuirass remains consist of the scales and leather or only of the scales. Within the few pages you can read on Google Books Chernenko mentions bronze scales attached to leather a few times. But as I do not have the original book, I am not able to date these examples (one is from Makeevka, Kurgan 396 and one is from Volkovcy, Kurgan 2. An besides that, Chernenko mentions scales (without specifying the material) sewn to leather very often.

I own the book, so if there is any specific information you would like me to look up, I can do so and post it.

But regarding the Greek T&Y-cuirass, I think, that leather ALSO (I do not preclude the unglued linen theory, by the way) was used. And i base my opinion on the book mentioned in my other post.

I think the conclusion to be drawn from the endless T&Y debates is that the main material these cuirasses were made out of was leather, but that linen was used by Greeks as well, though probably less often.