Linothorax vs Spolas

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

I have seen the golden fittings in the Tomb II in Vergina, but no material of the cuirass is stated.
Speaking with many archaeoogists in Vergina,they told me that no organic armour was found in the excavations in the whole area of Vergina.
However, the famous iron cuirass was covered externally with a layer of linen painted purple (they found traces of the pain under the golden fittings, and was lined internally in leather.
Khaire
Giannis

[katsika]

And you are referring to Philip's cuirass, which I believe is a funerary piece for a king, never used in combat?

[Alexand96]

Bill,
I was aware of that discovery in Thessaloníki, but I did not know that they were exhuming hoplites in full kit. Still, I'd really like to read more or see some pics (too hopeful, I know). Where were you able to read about their leather armor finds?

I'm not trying to call you a liar, so please don't take this the wrong way, but where did you read/hear about the organic materials found in Vergina? I've heard many different things about the Vergina finds at this point, and I'm trying to nail down some details.

However, the famous iron cuirass was covered externally with a layer of linen painted purple (they found traces of the pain under the golden fittings, and was lined internally in leather.

This is useless conjecture on my part, but I've always wondered whether the spolas might not been some type of leather/rawhide covered in a layer of linen. Particularly rawhide could serve as a firm yet flexible backing, and a linen covering could serve as an easier surface to paint/decorate with. Absolutely no evidence at all for this...just an idea I had.

[katsika]

No offense taken! Actually, the press release of the find was announced 8 years ago now. It's been dark since then (too many looters, so we know nothing). I know the name but I'd be loathe to speak it. Suffice it to say there were over 500 graves and they think there may be an additional 50-70 yet to be found. They stated that they were buried with swords, shields, spears, the whole panoply. Some women were even found wearing entirely gold dresses. I too am eagerly awaiting the release of new information - cataloging, etc.

[PMBardunias]

The piece of evidence that to me clinches the notion that both linen and leather were in use within the greater greek world, if perhaps not commonly on the mainland, is a quote from Aneas Tacticus (29.1-4). In describing how weapons could be smuggled into a city to aid in revolt by partisans, he tells us that "thorakes lineoi, Spoladia, perikephalaia, hopla, knemides,..." can be hidden and smuggled in. Now, Thorakes lineoi is clearly a corslet, and I and others have argued that Spoladia are not cloaks as is commonly translated, but leather corslets. The greeks of this period did not make use of any sort of subarmalis, so an undergarment of linen is not likely.

Those Delian treasury lists appear to mention both as well.

As Giannis wrote, you need to read our earlier threads on this, because it is the best discussion you will find on the topic in any form. If you'd like a summary, Jasper asked me to write an article on this debate back in Vol. IV, issue 3 of Ancient Warfare, that was largely a homage to the debates, and debaters, here on RAT.

[Dan D'Silva]

There are also many words in our own language which have undergone changes in meaning (i.e.: "gay"), so it is fair to "assume" some words used in ancient literature could also be somewhat distorted as well (especially in poetry - eg: "forsooth").

Indeed; corselet is another good example. But it is, in the end, just an English word we use to translate thorax. I'm not disagreeing with your overall conclusion that the linothorax probably wasn't the T&Y, only I think it was some kind of chest protector.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

The piece of evidence that to me clinches the notion that both linen and leather were in use within the greater greek world, if perhaps not commonly on the mainland, is a quote from Aneas Tacticus (29.1-4). In describing how weapons could be smuggled into a city to aid in revolt by partisans, he tells us that "thorakes lineoi, Spoladia, perikephalaia, hopla, knemides,..." can be hidden and smuggled in. Now, Thorakes lineoi is clearly a corslet, and I and others have argued that Spoladia are not cloaks as is commonly translated, but leather corslets. The greeks of this period did not make use of any sort of subarmalis, so an undergarment of linen is not likely.

Those Delian treasury lists appear to mention both as well.

As Giannis wrote, you need to read our earlier threads on this, because it is the best discussion you will find on the topic in any form. If you'd like a summary, Jasper asked me to write an article on this debate back in Vol. IV, issue 3 of Ancient Warfare, that was largely a homage to the debates, and debaters, here on RAT.

So i was remembering correctly that it had to do with a city, but with a revolt, not preparation for a siege. Oh well :roll:

[Dan Howard]

I too have seen similar tests of leather and linen with opposite results, which actually proves nothing,

If you know of a study that has been as well researched as Williams and properly published then I'd love to see it. At this point in time Williams is the definitive work regarding the protective capacity of armour.

[PMBardunias]

If this is correct, that hundreds of hoplites, in full regalia, have been discovered all wearing leather spolas...wouldn't that be just about the last nail in the coffin for the linothorax/spolas debate?

Actually no. This is something of a classical logical fallacy. Had they found linen as well it would be definative, but not finding linen only shows that in a small geographical area at the fringe of the Greek world no one happened to be buried in linen armor. Numbers are somewhat meaningless because the samples are coming from the same small range. It tells us very little about what Ionian, Cretan, or Etruscan hoplites for that matter wore.

So i was remembering correctly that it had to do with a city, but with a revolt, not preparation for a siege.

Sorry Giannis! I missed that you had already referenced this.

[katsika]

Could someone please present some forensic (not literature) archaeological, hard evidence that shows glued linen was ever used as armor in classical Greece?

[PMBardunias]

Could someone please present some forensic (not literature) archaeological, hard evidence that shows glued linen was ever used as armor in classical Greece?

I don't think anyone in this discussion right now believes in glued linen. That was a nice, but completely unsupportable hypothesis of Connelly's. Hence the title of my article: "Don't get stuck on glued linen"

As for physical evidence of linen corslets, that's an unrealistic standard given the paucity of archeological finds. I'm fairly confident that 4th C Spartans had a lambda blazon on their aspides, though I have yet to see one excavated. In fact, the only plausably Spartan aspis face I know of does not have one!

Even the putative leather spolades are still hearsay at best because they have yet to be published. There is in fact an interesting linen article of Etruscan origin. If anyone should come across: W. Helbig, "Oggetti trovati nella tomba Cornetana detta del guerriero," Adl (1874) 257-258, it describes a lost linen article that was in Berlin prior to WWII that was in some way associated with armor. An imprint of Etruscan textile, though probably not armor can be seen here, and this paper provides interesting information about how linen would have been woven if anyone is trying to duplicate it.
"An Etruscan Textile in Newark", Diane Lee Carroll, American Journal of Archaeology, Vol. 77, No. 3 (Jul., 1973), pp. 334-336

[Ghostmojo]

... I'm fairly confident that 4th C Spartans had a lambda blazon on their aspides, though I have yet to see one excavated. In fact, the only plausably Spartan aspis face I know of does not have one! ...

And I would hazard a guess Paul, that if the Λ symbol was applied in paint - then we are unlikely to ever see one. But you never know!

[Alexand96]

PMBardunias wrote:

If this is correct, that hundreds of hoplites, in full regalia, have been discovered all wearing leather spolas...wouldn't that be just about the last nail in the coffin for the linothorax/spolas debate?


Actually no. This is something of a classical logical fallacy.

Haha, knew I'd be called on this! And of course, you are absolutely correct - absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I meant, figuratively at least, that in our little world of obsessive devotees and replicators of classical history, instead of seeing re-enactors donning a linothorax, they will be instead attempting to recreate a leather spolas, wouldn't you agree?

[katsika]

This is essentially the response I had hoped to produce from the very first. One truly cannot be a serious living historian if one uses the "mix and match" method of creating one's panoply. An example of this would be coupling an "Italo-Corinthian" helmet with a muscled cuirass, or a boar's tooth helmet with a classical period spolas (etc.). Although, at some time in history, these would be considered "correct" Greek armor, they in no way are compatable to each other. It would be like presenting a 21st century American soldier's kit as an example of typical American Revolutionary War gear.

[Ghostmojo]

... It would be like presenting a 21st century American soldier's kit as an example of typical American Revolutionary War gear.

Indeed and I bet the boys in 1776 didn't go into battle proclaiming "let's go kick some limey ass" either!!! :lol: