Linothorax vs Spolas

[katsika]

Indeed and I bet the boys in 1776 didn't go into battle proclaiming "let's go kick some limey ass" either!!!

No - it was more like "MOLON LIMEY!"

[Alexand96]

Bill Looney wrote:

One truly cannot be a serious living historian if one uses the "mix and match" method of creating one's panoply. An example of this would be coupling an "Italo-Corinthian" helmet with a muscled cuirass,

Unless, of course, you're doing a Roman impression! Still, I understand what you are saying here. I myself am struggling with the proper way to interpret visual/monumental 'evidence.' Obviously, material evidence trumps all, but what weight (if any at all) can be given to an argument by the way that something appears in ancient art? Even if it is what we would assume to be a very detailed representation? Perhaps these questions are best left for another discussion, but I've always placidly accepted the linothorax idea before I became a RAT member, mostly because it seemed to look like a linen construction in Greek art.

[katsika]

This is why I have always favored Greek reenactment to Roman (HERE WE GO AGAIN!!! ). I feel the Romans, albeit highly efficient and successful empire builders, were the ancient world's equivalent to the borg (for all you Trekkies). This word comes from the ancient Greek: "Boring" (ONLY KIDDING :twisted: )!!!!!!! Seriously, I personally have always preferred the beauty and individuality expressed by the Classical Greek Hoplite panoply to the standard, uniformed Roman legionaire. I realize there were minor differences in helmets and armor from time to time amongst the Romans, but there isn't enough expression of individuality, such as found amongst the Greeks (even within the same time frame)to hold my personal interest. I applaud the Romal reenactment community's attention to detail, and wish this same stress and zeal would be transferred to the Greek reenactment community as a whole. This is why I might come off sounding a bit "rabid" with regard to period correctness. Thanks to all of you for your participation and input in this discussion - it has been fun.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Sounding unwillingly pedantic, an apulocorinthian helmet makes a perfect match with a muscled cuirass...
Still, i don't understand your eagerness to accept the wide use of leather armour, and your dismisal of linen, given that we have multiple sources that state the existance of both linen cuirasses and spolades. And without the publications of any leather armour (by the way the cemetery you mentioned is in Pella, not Vergina, and i spoke to the chief archeologists in Vergina in a two day workshop this past October, and they assured me that they have found no traces at all of organic armour. They did find linen on the outside of a cuirass meant in all respects to resemble a typical tube and yoke cuirass. The pteryges however were made of leather, IIRC)
Khaire
Giannis

[katsika]

My "dismissal" of linen isn't a wholesale one. I am simply saying there hasn't (as of yet) been any glued linen Linothorax (insert here whatever other word or translation makes you comfortable) unearthed. Assuming this to be true, what alternative (aside from saying all Greeks always wore metal cuirasses throughout their entire storied history) material(s) do you suggest were then in use during the Classical period?

[PMBardunias]

Assuming this to be true, what alternative (aside from saying all Greeks always wore metal cuirasses throughout their entire storied history) material(s) do you suggest were then in use during the Classical period?

Why, woven spider silk of course! Stronger than steel. Haven't you ever wondered why it was Athena who competed with Arachne in weaving? What else would Athena be weaving?



Joke aside, they just successfully transferred spider silk genes into silkworm moths, so we may all be wearing spider silk soon.

[Kyros]

I think what the gist of this is:

No literary reference makes it clear or reasonable to assume the commonly depicted Spolas was ever built of linen. The Homeric reference predates anything remotely akin the Hoplite warfare and the Spolas is a strict development related to this battle tactic. Armor always follows the needs of combat not the other way around. The later references at time refer to both as different things so if that is the case.....what is the Spolas made of? Xenophon mentions it directly as leather.

The Vergina/Pella site refers to the Prince's tomb which did state at the time of excavation that an organic mass, like dried liquid was found on the floor with several gold armor plates stuck within the mass. The team presumed it could only leather as it was neither cloth nor corroded metal. Only ancient corpses had a similar composition. That report came from a book detailing the material and workmanship of the items alone from Phillip's and the Prince's tombs. The prince seems to post date Phillip. Similar study of Scythian and Thracian tombs report the same 'goo' and regard it as dried leather or adipose tissue residue.

The other dig of 500+ tombs is not Pella or Vergina. It is a seperate dig which no one even the American Archeological instate in Athens will discuss. I doubt anyone will get an honest answer simply by talking to someone at a museum. I remember the original press release though and it did really say the graves were untouched and so well preserved being on the slope of a hill that.....everything remained. It specifically stated that the warrior leather armors were adorned with gold plaques and had golden masks. Even their leather sandals were adorned with gold.

My thought is this....WOW. Leather sandals, leather armor, their spear shafts and the wooden shields are all mentioned as intact to a degree that they can be unearthed more or less intact. I'm sure this will take many years to catalogue and study before anything is released. The nature and magnitude of so rich a find has unfortunately slammed the door shut in our face for awhile. But 500 plus graves dating from archaic to Hellenistic will blow the roof of this forum.

Some of us may indeed be wrong, some of us may indeed be right! But I think it will come down on us in equal measure but at last we will know as much as the Roman do of their armor and equipment. Finally!

So at first, authoritative blush from the Archeologists themselves....classical armor appears to have been leather. That is if you can trust a 2,000 year old corpse wearing a leather Spolas that is. Personally, I wouldn't turn my back on that dead guy. Literature is great, pottery is great but Habeus Corpus!

I feel myself feel that linen, quilted, was at one time used. Perhaps Homer saw this or he included it as a reference to time older than himself. But as weapons and tactics evolved the armor would have had to evolve. Padded cloth would be no match for the much sharper steely iron points. Leather seems to be a natural armor progression in many other cultures so the Greeks would have been equally savvy.

[katsika]

HA!!!!! No, I was thinking more along the lines that they smeared cow dung on their bodies, then let it dry and harden in the sun - wait a minute - someone said there weren't enough cattle in Greece back then - no leather, no s___! :lol:

[Kyros]

Sorry for typos and syntax. It's hard to type on a little phone

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Kyros, i do not disagree with what you say. However, i disagree with your ignoring of some very STRONG literary sources that are much later than Homer.
Alkaios is the first, dating to about 570-550 bc, then we have the stone inscription with the donations to a greek temple in Delos mentionning linen cuirasses AND spolades, and then we have Aneas Tacticus who mentions again both linen cuirasses and spolades.
Now, you might argue that leather was much more common or whatever, but unless you believe that all those ancient sources invented the use of linen cuirasses by the greeks, then we HAVE to accept that there is enough evidence for the use of linen cuirasses by the Greeks.
Then there is the quote for Ifikrates equipping his soldiers with linen cuirasses. This doesn't mean that they greeks weren't using them, but perhaps merely that it wasn't the commonest form of armour. But it does mean that it wasn't all that impossible for the Greeks to find linen armour, and also that they considered it superior.
Your guess that linen was abandoned when "sharper weapons" got in use is unfounded, because in later times europeans used much sharper weapons than the greeks and still used linen armour.

And Bill, you keep mentioning "glued" linen cuirasses, but i think by now nobody even mentions glue. It is just not necessary.

The find of leather remains in the Vergina tombs is a well known fact, but there are many possible explanations as to what it could have been. For instance, the bed strips that the armour was placed on, and so on. Equally, there are linen and wool remains, but they cannot be identified.
I didn't just ask a "museum person", we did two days of workshops with a team of several archaeologists, spcializing in different aspects, including the head of the Ephorate and chairwoman of the Vergina museum, who was present in the excavations of both tombs with Manolis Andronikos. No leather or linen armour has been identified as such in the tombs,nor in the Temenid cemetery nearby.
We handled several unpublished items, weapons, armour and jewelry from the bronze to the hellenistic age. They have no reason to hide an extraordinary find, even if it is unpublished.

These incredible finds from that other cemetery...i have heard of a great number of tombs with partial armour in them, but never heard of so complete finds. I would love to read an article even on the newspaper that you read it...
Khairete
Giannis

[Alexand96]

Kyros Messalides wrote:

Sorry for typos and syntax. It's hard to type on a little phone

Well, regardless of leather or glued linen, I think I speak for all when I say that I am deeply offended by your typos

Also, I'd have to argue one point you made - that with these finds, now Greek re-enactors will know as much as the Roman lovers. If it's true that there are over 275 hoplites in full panoply there, that is monumentally more material evidence than I can ever recall being recovered in Roman context. It is literally like hitting the jackpot!

[Kyros]

Giannis,

I think we agree here but perhaps is just a degree of misunderstanding here. You're right that both are mentioned, as I acknowledged. We also agree that they don't seem to be exactly the same kind of armor, more popular; less popular what have you. The basic problem for any of us is not having lived in their time we're not quite sure whether their terminology refers to something that is or is not depicted. Lino- anything maybe a precise description or it could have become a shorthand word that lost its strictly descriptive value over time. Hell for all we know the fluffy, flouncy bits we see on occasion over their chitoniskos could have been called a linothorax as it functions as padding. Simply stated we just don't have their first hand language in usage. We have to study it from afar and try to infere meaning from what could have been colloquialism.

As far as sharper weapons in medieval times, I think the Greeks could make pretty sharp iron weapons and you can't compare apples and oranges though to frame your point. There were no phalanxes in medieval times so an individual's armor type didn't equate that well to the whole period. Plus in medieval times you had just a different mentality in raising armies. Most were indentured servants and peasants who were basically strong-armed into service with whatever they could find, scrape together. The Greek mentality seemed a bit different than this.

The digs at Archontiko are still ongoing. Last I checked 1,014 graves so far. Many not complete including many cremated remains as well as completely inhumed bodies. Nearly every grave contains gold. Some in great profusion. It will obviously take time to sift through all of that. But in various releases of information the leather armor is indeed mentioned.

This is none of it, intended to get your dander up, it's just to explain that likely all of us are right and wrong. As I stated, I think we're more in agreement these days about the wide variety of what they indeed used as there is no running standard amongst artifacts. Nothing mass produced. So likely linen or leather is a moot point other than to say whatever they were making of linen to be used as armor has yet to rear its head definitively. Unless we have a time machine we could go around this same bush all year. But it is pointless to argue about how we agree. There are a thousands different factors to each individual Hoplite that could have lived in the 4-500 years that is the heart of the Hoplite age. One man had this and another that. I think the important hurdle to overcome was the way people USED to think it was only one way or another.

[PMBardunias]

No literary reference makes it clear or reasonable to assume the commonly depicted Spolas was ever built of linen.

Please do not further confuse this issue by equating the Tube and yoke corslet with the Spolas. The Spolas may well have been a tube and yoke corselet, I think it was, but it may not have been. "Spola" is simply a form of the more common "stola" and not a specific term- like saying "vest" for modern body armor, which many authors would today and confuse future historians. I think its clear form Xenophon's usage that it is a protective garment in its own right and not some sort of underarmor, but he tells us nothing of its shape. It could be a cape that hangs from the shoulders like Libyans wore for all we know for sure. Add to the confusion that there are a couple of mentions "lineou...Spoladion".

Thorakes is the term used most commonly to refer to bronze cuirasses, meaning simply "chest" but implying something like "bronze-chest" from context. "Thorakes lineoi" would seem to modify the already established armor type to mean "linen chest" or perhaps the more convoluted "bronze-chest made of linen". To again confuse things we have the 5thc reference to "Thorakia Skutinous", or Hide-chest. To call either of these "thorakes" anything but armor is to me a big stretch.

So the problem is that we made up the T-Y designation based on what we moderns see on vases- and armor consisting of a tube section and yoke over the shoulders. Nowhere are we told that either the spolas or the thorax is this thing we see. Thus we cannot equate them without going beyond the evidence. A spolas could look more like a vest,cape or apron, such things are depicted, or a linothorax could be cut not like a T-Y but exactly like a bronze thorax, again a vest of some type. Or, and I lean towards this, spolas and thorakes were all the same basic t-y cut, just two different terms that do not define leather or linen construction all by themselves.

Because of the problem with Spola=stola in a different dialect, I like the idea of thorakes. Bronze Thorakes, Thorakes lineoi or linothorakes and Thorakia Skutinous or Skutinothorakes, etc.

[Kyros]

Well that illustrates the problem I mention. None of us can be certain what the word or words are intending to identify. Only the word by itself, which is not always clear unless we had the intimate knowledge that an everyday speaker would have. Language is usually the biggest obstacle. Not because it's foreign or old but because the common usage and meaning is quickly changed within a generation or two. So we'll just have to agree more or less, about what words we can use to mean these things in our discussions. Linothorax or any any variation of, is clear to mean whatever this thing is or was is of cloth. A thorax would be clear to mean a metal breastplate and Spolas the TY armor. Wait! Don't jump on me! I know it's tempting to get in here and say this and such. The terms aren't any definition....just a way to clarify so that we don't end up with a 200 word list to describe these 3 main forms at issue. A Spolas to me is the the commonly depicted yoked armor, a Thorax; a cuirass. A 'Lino' is whatever I guess youre thinking it but cloth. It just makes it simple.

None of these discussions will dissuade those who have their minds closed and their curiosity turned off. As I said before, at least the prevailing mood is at least more in agreement that a variety of possibilities likely existed at any given time or in a cascade of development through time.

[PMBardunias]

A Spolas to me is the the commonly depicted yoked armor, a Thorax; a cuirass.

And if you are wrong and the spolas is not the T-Y every time it is used, then you have semantically boxed us in again in just the manner the linothraxites did. Now I commonly have to tell laymen about "leather linothoraxes!" Clearly not every Stolas was armor. The word only has meaning to us in this context because we are not so familiar with dialects other than Attic.

I don't like it because it is clearly slang- which is why we are told by the later writer that Xenophon used it to refer to a thorax. I could call a gun a "heater" and all of my Mafia friends would know what I mean, but I, and the guys who make my thermostat, would be a bit taken aback if future historians argued over the merits of .45 and 10mm "heaters".