01-21-2012, 02:59 AM
Actually there are lots of images that beg interpretation of what is this thing under or near the armor. The views vary between cloth designs to "studded leather"!!!!
There are a couple of hydriae on National Archaeological Museum in Athens plus a new horseman stele that shows something that could be interpreted as gambeson.
Are we supposed to believe that the only way to cushion the blows on metal armor was Aristotel's description of the Pontic sea sponge?.
Arming cups appear in Greek art. The reasoning that leads to the use of arming cup leads to subarmalis too. All members with martial arts experience understand the need of cushioning the blows.
Even the stiffened historically accurate linen armor was so rough that some of our members chose to wear a sheepskin (!!!) for comfort.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/koryvantes/...7764242268
And believe me our armors went in to grueling conditions!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/koryvantes/...7634815147
He thought that lining only the edges of the bell cuirass as the scholars theory has it was enough! Next day the sheepskin entered his arsenal!
So YES! I do strongly believe "thorakes KAI spolades" means "armors AND something".
Was it Xenophon or some later copyist who omitted "aytwn" from the text and made us arguing here?
Lining the edges of metal armor is simply not enough!
All theories and interpretations Must be expressed. But they must be tested too.
No argument presented here convinced me about spolas being armor and my bruises also disagree heavily.
Plus animal skins worn on their own are called Leonnti, Pelti or Skytos in ancient texts.
Kind regards
There are a couple of hydriae on National Archaeological Museum in Athens plus a new horseman stele that shows something that could be interpreted as gambeson.
Are we supposed to believe that the only way to cushion the blows on metal armor was Aristotel's description of the Pontic sea sponge?.
Arming cups appear in Greek art. The reasoning that leads to the use of arming cup leads to subarmalis too. All members with martial arts experience understand the need of cushioning the blows.
Even the stiffened historically accurate linen armor was so rough that some of our members chose to wear a sheepskin (!!!) for comfort.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/koryvantes/...7764242268
And believe me our armors went in to grueling conditions!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/koryvantes/...7634815147
He thought that lining only the edges of the bell cuirass as the scholars theory has it was enough! Next day the sheepskin entered his arsenal!
So YES! I do strongly believe "thorakes KAI spolades" means "armors AND something".
Was it Xenophon or some later copyist who omitted "aytwn" from the text and made us arguing here?
Lining the edges of metal armor is simply not enough!
All theories and interpretations Must be expressed. But they must be tested too.
No argument presented here convinced me about spolas being armor and my bruises also disagree heavily.
Plus animal skins worn on their own are called Leonnti, Pelti or Skytos in ancient texts.
Kind regards
HOPLITE14GR (aka Stefanos)
Phokean Ekdromos
http://hetairoi.de/
http://hoplomachia.gr
http://stefanosskarmintzos.wordpress.com
Phokean Ekdromos
http://hetairoi.de/
http://hoplomachia.gr
http://stefanosskarmintzos.wordpress.com