Linothorax vs Spolas

[Sean Manning]

The above passage could also be interpreted to mean that everyone was issued both spolas AND thorax and that, as Stefanos believes, that the spolas was worn in addition to the thorax and was not a distinct type of body armour at all.

Yes. Its certainly possible that the word could be as vague as gambeson or aketon, which could be anything from spear-proof cloth armour covered in leather to a light linen jacket to keep armour and clothing apart. At some dates/times/places each word sometimes had a more specific meaning.

What I think the evidence does indicate was that spolades were commonplace garments worn for protection in war. Someone arguing that the term didn't include the tube-and-yoke typology would have to show that another typology was common in the age of Xenophon.

[hoplite14gr]

Actually there are lots of images that beg interpretation of what is this thing under or near the armor. The views vary between cloth designs to "studded leather"!!!!
There are a couple of hydriae on National Archaeological Museum in Athens plus a new horseman stele that shows something that could be interpreted as gambeson.

Are we supposed to believe that the only way to cushion the blows on metal armor was Aristotel's description of the Pontic sea sponge?.

Arming cups appear in Greek art. The reasoning that leads to the use of arming cup leads to subarmalis too. All members with martial arts experience understand the need of cushioning the blows.

Even the stiffened historically accurate linen armor was so rough that some of our members chose to wear a sheepskin (!!!) for comfort.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/koryvantes/...7764242268

And believe me our armors went in to grueling conditions!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/koryvantes/...7634815147
He thought that lining only the edges of the bell cuirass as the scholars theory has it was enough! Next day the sheepskin entered his arsenal!

So YES! I do strongly believe "thorakes KAI spolades" means "armors AND something".
Was it Xenophon or some later copyist who omitted "aytwn" from the text and made us arguing here?

Lining the edges of metal armor is simply not enough!
All theories and interpretations Must be expressed. But they must be tested too.
No argument presented here convinced me about spolas being armor and my bruises also disagree heavily.

Plus animal skins worn on their own are called Leonnti, Pelti or Skytos in ancient texts.

Kind regards

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

It is the wrong way of thinking in reenacting! You first have to KNOW that a subarmalis existed, and then try to link it with a specific word and form.
You cannot give to a word a meaning that you don't have hard evidence that even existed.
Also, i didn't claim that all that is needed in plate armour is leather stitching on the edges. I said that the padding could have very well been attached to the cuirass itself, as was done to helmets and greaves, and thus did not have a specific name (i.e. spolas).
Interesting to note that the aristocratic hippeis on the Parthenon frieze are wearing muscled cuirasses and tube and yoke armour in about the same frequency, the most of them being unarmoured of course. Muscled cuirasses are much less frequent even in artistic representations.
I think that Sean summed it up well in his previous post. We really-really have very few candidates in iconography for the word spolas, and none of them include a subarmalis.
Khairete
Giannis

[hoplite14gr]

I will tell you opinion on the effected of attached padding on metal armor if I proof test one. The "padding attachment" on metal armors in ancient Greece is just another theory to be proved right or be busted on terms of practicality. Thats what re-enacting is useful for.

We know that both helmet padding and arming caps co existed in Ancient Greece.
So any rational objection why "padding attachment" and subarmalis did not coexist?
We also know that leathers and hides worn by the people had their specific names as I mention on my last post. We have also the possible ambiguity on Xenophone's text as Dan point it out.

So all these image details in some people's opinion are "beyond reasonable doubt" just cloth decorations? They might but they might also depict subarmalis items.


http://koryvantes.blogspot.com/2011/12/3-2011.html

Please also allow me to believe that 10 years experience in re-creating various historical periods and the recognition of our Association's efforts by two Universities qualify me to judge what is good or bad reenacting better that those who think they have seen it all in one event because now we do not only reenact but we do experimental Archaeology NOT simple shows :twisted:


Kind regards

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

We know that both helmet padding and arming caps co existed in Ancient Greece.
So any rational objection why "padding attachment" and subarmalis did not coexist?

Yes,because we have numerous representatons of the former and none of the latter.
Also, never do we hear of an arming cap worn as armour in its own right.
We will have to agree to disagree about all the images you posted in your last post, because i don't see the chance of subarmalis shown in any single one of them.
As for the chance of Xenophon meaning "thorakes with their spolades", this can readily be rejected by Pollux who specifically tells us that Xenophon says "spolas instead of thorax".
And we still have no mention of subarmalis, whereas we do have for arming caps (Aristotle)
Finally, we can only make any worthy conclusions if we do tests with EXACT replicas of ancient body armour, meaning that they will fit the wearer as well, and they will have the same thickness and weight. And we cannot sucrifice any of the above, if we want our experiment to have any value.
Khaire
Giannis

[PMBardunias]

Also, never do we hear of an arming cap worn as armour in its own right.

The pilos may well have been used as an arming cap, then worn without the helmet, then later remade in bronze as a helmet in its own right.

[PMBardunias]

So all these image details in some people's opinion are "beyond reasonable doubt" just cloth decorations? They might but they might also depict subarmalis items.

I don't think any of those images show anything other than the usual chiton, this image shows a garment that was seen in the 5thc, often on cavalry, that appears to be related to the heavy skirt, ot perizoma.

Notice, in the small image, that it is worn over the chiton as armor would be and clearly of heavier make as evinced by the lack of wrinkles. The larger image shows the thickness of the garment at the shoulder. These are usually describes as heavy "blanket weave" textile, but I see no reason they could not be made in leather as well. This would quite literally be a "spolas" which is just the Aeolic form of stolas. In fact it would be technically a "short stolas" or stolidion because of the short length. Unlike he chiton it was too thick to tuck up into the belt to clear away from the legs.

The origin of this garment is not known to me, but the perizoma is often seen as a skirt below a bronze thorax, so perhaps the garment extended up into one of these, thus a subarmalis.

[attachment=2665]heavygarment.jpg[/attachment]

[PMBardunias]

What I think the evidence does indicate was that spolades were commonplace garments worn for protection in war. Someone arguing that the term didn't include the tube-and-yoke typology would have to show that another typology was common in the age of Xenophon.

Far too much weight is being placed on "spolas" as a specialized term for armor. Pollux may tell us that Xenophon uses the term to mean armor, but clearly that was not the only, or even primary meaning. When Sappho used the term spola in her native Aeolic dialect it was not as armor. In fact the derivation may be Doric as easily as Aeolic, if so the path to its use by Xenophon to mean armor is clear. If the more generic term for garment were used by mercenaries as slang for their armor, then to Xenophon's Attic speaking audience the use of the term in dialect signals a specialized meaning that it does not carry within its own dialect. Xenophon uses stolas to describe a non-armor garment.

σπολά , ἡ, Aeol. for στολή, Sapph.55 (dub.).

I apologize for the length of what follows, butplease read through the uses of a variety of words that are all related to Spolas/stolas. Some, like stolidion, probably mean armor of somesort, but most are just garments. In fact there are some very interesting meanings for related terms, from simply "equipement", like hoplon, to allusions to ranks and ordered rows that come from the orderly folding of garments. I put some interesting sections in bold.

pσπολάς , άδος, h(,
A. leathern garment, jerkin, S.Fr.11, Ar.Av.933,935, 944, X.An.3.3.20, 4.1.18 (with v.l. στολάς).


στολ-ίς , ίδος, h(,=
A. “στολή” 11, garment, robe, E.Ph.1491 (lyr.), AP7.27 (Antip. Sid.), Sammelb.6178 (Egypt, metr.), etc.; νεβρῶν στολίδες, i.e. fawnskins worn as garments, E. Hel.1359 (lyr.).
2. sails, AP10.6 (Satyr.).
II. pl., folds in a woman's robe, “πέπλων” E.Ba.936; “τῶν ἀνδριάντων” Arist.Aud.802a38; cf. στολιδωτός: of wrinkles or folds in the womb or other parts, Sor.1.14, Heliod. ap. Orib.44.8.14; of rugose ulcers, Gal.12.231, al.; also wrinkles on the forehead, Poll.2.46, cf. Plu.2.64a.

στόλ-ιον , to/, Dim. of
A. “στολή” 11, scanty garment, of the dress of philosophers, AP11.157 (Ammian.), Arr. Epict.3.23.35; v. στολή 11.2.

στολ-ίζω , (στολίς)
A. put in trim, στολίσας νηὸς πτερά drawing in the sail, Hes.Op.628.
2. equip, dress, “τινὰ πέπλοις” Anacreont.15.29; “ἀγαλμάτιον” Plu.2.366f; “τοὺς θεούς” Stud.Pal.22.183.90 (ii A.D.):— Pass., ἐστολισμένος δορί armed with spear, E.Supp.659; νῆες σημείοισιν ἐστ. Id.IA255 (lyr.); νυμφικῶς ἐστ. Ach.Tat.3.7; “ἐστ. τὴν βασιλικὴν στολήν” LXX Es.8.15: abs., ἐστ. in full dress, ib. 1 Es.1.2, al.
3. metaph., deck, adorn, “τὰς φρένας τινί” AP9.214 (Leo Phil.).
II. to be a στολιστής, IG3.162.9.

στολιδ-ωτός , ή, όν, (
A. “στολίς” 11) λίῳ ap.Suid.), cf. Ev.Marc.12.38.
3. act of dressing, μετὰ ς. χιτών a long tunic hanging in many folds, X.Cyr.6.4.2, cf. Poll.7.54.

στολίδ-ιον [ι^δ], τό, Dim. of στολίς,
A. leather jerkin, Aen.Tact.29.4.

στολ-ή , h(, Aeol. σπολά (q.v.): (στέλλω):—
A. equipment, fitting out, “στρατοῦ” A.Supp.764.
2. armament, Id.Pers.1018 (lyr.).
II. equipment in clothes, raiment, ib.192; σχῆμα Ἑλλάδος ς. S.Ph.224, cf. E.Heracl.130; “ἱππάδα στολὴν ἐνεσταλμένοι” Hdt.1.80; “ς. ἱππική” Ar.Ec.846; “Σκυθική” Hdt.4.78; “Θρῃκία” E.Rh.313; “Μηδική” X.Cyr.8.1.40; “γυναικεία” Ar.Th.851, cf. 92; “τοξική” Pl.Lg.833b; “στολὴν ἔχειν ἢν ἂμ βούληται” SIG1003.14 (Priene, ii B.C.): metaph. of birds, “ς. πτερῶν” Ach.Tat.1.15.
2. garment, robe, S.OC1357,1597, PCair.Zen.54.32 (pl.), 263.4,8 (iii B.C.), BGU1860.4 (i B.C.), etc.; ς. θηρός, of the lion's skin which Heracles wore, E.HF465; ἐν ς. περιπατεῖν in full dress, M.Ant.1.7 (v.l. -τὴν ς. Orib.Syn.5.21.
III. (στέλλω IV) check to motion, pressure, “τοῦ ἀέρος” Epicur.Nat.11.11, cf. 14.4.
2. reduction, diminution, “τῶν σιτίων” Herod.Med. ap. Aët.5.129.

στολ-άς , άδος, h(, (
A. “στόλος” 1.3) moving in close array, “Λίβυες οἰωνοὶ A. in vertical rows, κριθὴ στολάδες” E. Hel.1480 (lyr.), as v.l. for στοχάδες in a row.
II. leathern jerkin, Ael. Tact.2.8.

στολ-άρχης , ου, o(,
A. commander of a fleet, PCair.Zen.48.2 (iii B.C.), Epigr.Gr.337 (Cyzic.), PSI4.298.15 (iv A.D., gen. -ου), Hsch.; fem. στολ-αρχίς , ίδος, h(, epith. of Isis, POxy. 1380.8 (ii A.D.).

στολ-άζομαι , Med.,
A. array oneself in, “πάντες ἐστολάδαντο . . φάρεα” BCH 50.529 (Marathon, ii A.D.).

στολα^γωγ-έω ,
A. lead an expedition, οἱ τὴν ἀποικίαν -ήσαντες Dion. Byz.8.

στοιχώδης , ες,
ς. barley which has its grains one directly under another, cj. in Thphr.HP8.4.2 (στοιχειώδης codd.). LIKE SCALES?

στόλος , o(, (στέλλω)
A. equipment, esp. for warlike purposes, expedition by land or (more frequently) sea, freq. in Hdt.; “στόλον . . οὐκέτι κατὰ θάλασσαν στείλαντες ἀλλὰ κατ᾽ ἤπειρον” 5.64; freq. folld. by ἐπί c. acc., ὁ ἐπ᾽ Αἰθίοπας ς. 3.25; ἐπὶ Id.Or. 989 (lyr.).
2. generally, journey or (oftener) voyage, ὁ οἴκαδε ς. S.Ph.499; οὔ μοι μακρὸς εἰς Οἴτην ς. ib.490; “ς. ποιεῖσθαι” X.An.1.3.16; “πλεῦσαι” S.Ph.1037; ἰδίῳ ς. in a journey privately undertaken, on one's own account, opp. δημοσίῳ ς., Hdt.5.63, cf. Th.8.9; κοινῷ ς. Hdt.6.39; ἐλευθέρῳ ς. with free course, Pi.P.8.98; πατρῷον στόλον (acc. cogn.) ἑσπόμην by my father's sending, S.Tr.562.
b. the purpose or cause of a journey, mission, errand, Id.OC358; τίνι ς. προσέσχες . .; πόθεν πλέων; where Neoptolemus answers ἐξ Ἰλίου . . ναυστολῶ, Id.Ph.244; “ὁ δὲ Λιβύην στρατιῆς μέγας ς. 4.145; “ἐλέγετο ὁ ς. εἶναι εἰς Πισίδας” X.An.3.1.9; ὁ πρὸς Ἴλιον ς. S.Ph.247; οὔτε τοῦ πρώτου ς. ib.73; “λεκτὸν ἀροῦμεν στόλον” A.Pers.795, cf. E. Hec.1141; τεθριπποβάμων ς. an equipage with four horses, ς. νῷν ἐστι παρὰ τὸν Τηρέα” Ar.Av.46: metaph., “τρίτος ἡμῖν ς. ἐστὶ τοῦ λόγου ἐπὶ S.OC1305, cf. Tr.226,496, etc.; seaforce, fleet, Hdt.5.43; ς. χιλιοναύτης, of the expedition against Troy, A.Ag.45 (anap.), cf. 577; “ναυβάτῃ στόλῳ” S.Ph.270; οὐ πολλῷ στόλῳ, i.e. in one ship, ib.547, cf. 561; νεῶν ς. Th.1.31; ς. ἀγείρειν ib. 9; “συναγείρειν” Hdt.1.4; “καταλύειν” Id.7.16.β́: generally, party, band, troop, freq. in A.Supp., 28 (anap.), 187, al.; “παίδων, γυναικῶν, καὶ τὴν τέχνην” D.H.Rh.11.9.
c. equipment in concrete sense, “πραθέντος τοῦ στόλου εἰς βασίλεια” IPE12.32A45 (Olbia, iii B.C.); ἱερὸς ς. sacred vestments, Milet.1(7).209 (iii A.D.).
3. armament, army, τὸν ἑπτάλογχον ς., of the Seven against Thebes, ς. πρεσβυτίδων” Id.Eu.1027, cf. 856 (pl.); νοσεῖ δέ μοι πρόπας ς. all the people, S.OT170 (lyr.); guild, “ὁ ς. τῶν σωληνοκεντῶν” OGI756.5 (Milet.).
4. παγκρατίου ς., periphr. for παγκράτιον, Pi.N.3.17; λόγου ς. a set narrative, Emp.17.26.
II. appendage, excrescence, “ς. ὀμφαλώδης” Arist.GA752b6; stump of the tail, in animals, Id.PA 658a33; σμικροῦ γ᾽ ἕνεκεν [κέρκου] ἔχουσί τινα στόλον ib.689b5.
2. a ship's prow, Pi.P.2.62; plated with brass, χαλκήρης ς. A.Pers. 408, cf. E.IT1135 (lyr.), Trag.Adesp.272 (pl.); δώδεκα ς. ναῶν f.l. for δωδεκάστολοι νᾶες, Ps.-E.IA277 (lyr.); δρυοπαγὴς ς.,= πάσσαλος, S.Fr.702.

[Ghostmojo]

Also, never do we hear of an arming cap worn as armour in its own right.

The pilos may well have been used as an arming cap, then worn without the helmet, then later remade in bronze as a helmet in its own right.

I was about to say that. I believe the Skiritai (whom I have been trying to introduce into this conversation - without a lot of success) probably wore the felt pilos as head protection; and the Spartans would have worn it (or something very similar) under their bronze pilos helmets.

It makes perfect sense for lighter, often skirmishing, troops to do this. There are obvious cost benefits too, particularly in a heirarchical society which is reflected in its troop types and their armour etc.

[hoplite14gr]

Thank you Paul.

I am the first to doubt even the images that I presented and the images that you kindly provided. But the hard fact is that armor needs "cushioning".

So to put the things together.

Spolas is related with armor. The issue is was it armor on its own accord or accessory of armor? I favor the second option but good arguments for or against do exist.

Howard the issue on the Skiritai worth probably a thread of its own.
The "skir" word root seems mostly to have to do with stony ground from a quick search I did, but I need to search more on this matter-no opinion yet on this.

Kind regards

[PMBardunias]

Spolas is related with armor. The issue is was it armor on its own accord or accessory of armor? I favor the second option but good arguments for or against do exist.

The question may be moot because the spolas may well have been a subarmalis that was also worn as armor on its own by some. The question I was addressing primarily above is whether "spolas" meant the same thing as the T-Y corslet we see on vases. Personally I think it might, but there is far too much ambiguity to start calling all T-y corslets spolades. As far as I know that short, heavy chiton pictured above has no name known to us, so obviously there are elements of hoplite kit we do not have contemporary names for. This is why I suggested simply calling them thorakes of different types. When Xenophon described the linen armor worn by hill-men they encountered which had ropes in place of pteruges, he called it a linen thorax, not a linen spolas, though the comparison to a T-Y is surely meant. It would be good if those of you with more Greek than me go through those words above and others, like the "chalkiochitoniskos" which I think is in Homer, they need a systematic study.

[PMBardunias]

the Skiritai (whom I have been trying to introduce into this conversation - without a lot of success)

Howard, there is so much not known about the Skiritai that it only adds more variability to bring them in. But I too would welcome a thread exploring them in detail- sort of the Scottish highlanders of the Spartans.

[Ghostmojo]

Ok chaps I will take that suggestion to heart (because it is a good one) and I'm surprised I didn't think of it before. I'll start a new thread specifically about the Skiritai:

http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat.html?fu...715#304715

I hope Paul, Stefanos and others will join me there.

[Sean Manning]

Paul, it will take me a while to look at some of those references. Beware trusting Liddel and Scott; while comprehensive, they have some surprising mistakes (eg. the "hopla"-shields misconception).

I hope that Ruben finds time to write up and publish the spolas research. I think he has the most right to; he did most of the hard research a few years ago.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Paul, the laconian pilos MIGHT have been used as an arming cap, but i have proof for the use of more than three shapes of arming caps, and no proof or even indication that the laconian pilos ever was. So, it was no more an arming cap than the petasos was, and you cannot claim that the petassos ever was considered an arming cap, even if it was worn in battle (by cavalrymen mostly but not only) and at leats one bronze example has been found. So no, the pilos is not evidence at all of the greeks using their armour padding as armour in its own right, since there is no evidence that it was considered armourpadding. If you ask me, i believe they could have worn the original felt version under their bronze ones some times, still this doesn not make it a specific kind of padding. It is a hat that made it into a helmet, like a number of other greek hats.

I would be weary of leaning towards that thicker chiton being a leather jerkin used as subarmalis.
First of all, it seems to be a "foreign" influence, and we often see it worn by Thracian peltasts (who don't wear armour) and Amazons. The patterns also pint to that direction, and i will point out that even the Thracian cloaks are rarely depicted with any amount of pleats and wrinkles. Thracian winter is COLD, i can assure you!

Wearing two chitons, one obviously thicker than the other but hardly looking like leather, is depicted also in sculpture. The stele below is an excellent example. Being an Amazon, she is wearing the long sleeved version.

[attachment=2679]1137561598_343aac0252_b.jpg[/attachment]

The use of the "perizoma" or whatever we call it, with metal cuirass is extremely rare in artistic representations too. In more than the 90% of the times, they are worn either over a light chiton, or they have leather pteryges attached to the cuirass itself.

Cushioning for armour? I'm all for it. Evidence for a subarmalis-leather jerkin or other separate garment worn under it, and also used as armour in its own right? None!
Every time that spolas or similar words are used in literature, they are worn in their own right, and never mentioned worn under other types of armour. Xenophon is far from such an example.
Khairete
Giannis