Holding up a cingulum with segmentata

[Flavius Licinus]

I spent some time going back through the threads, and couldn't find an answer to this question: How do you keep your cingulum from sliding off your segmentata? I think I remember reading on the boards somewhere that many of you attach it to the segmentata. Any ideas would be most appreciated!

If it helps, I'm using a SW003NH Concentric Circle Balteus 2 from Soul of the Warrior, and a Deepeeka Corbridge A.

Maximas gratias vobis ago,
-Flavius
Jonathan

[Magnus]

"S" hooks that will lay flat against your girdle plates...or leather ties.

[Crispvs]

I have never had a problem with my belt slipping down, although many people have.

There are a couple of things to check before you go looking for imaginative solutions to holding your belt up.

Firstly - is it the right size? When done up it should be tight around the bottom girdle plate. It should be tight enough that you cannot easily push anything (such as a knife blade) between it and the armour. It should act to pull the armour in tightly around the hips.

Secondly - does your bottom girdle plate taper when you have it on? It may taper for a couple of reasons - either because for some reason it is the wrong shape or because it is too big for you and it ends up sloping in towards your hips due to there being little solid backing to hold it in place. If it is the latter I would suggest padding your waist out a bit by wearing a fascia ventralis around your waist and over your tunic. You may have problems if your tunic is not wide enough as well. Some people wear 'tunics' which are really some sort of T-shirt rather than the large wide garments the Romans wore. If your tunic is too narrow and/or short then there will be far less material around the waist area than there should be once it has been hitched up over your waist tie. This material naturally pads out the armour to some extent. A subarmalis will also help to back up the armour plate.

If you have ticked both those boxes (and their sub-boxes) already, then you may want to look at another solution. If not though, check these two points first and then look for other solutions if you are still having problems after that.

It occurs to me as well, that if you have a dagger on your belt when you put it on (particularly if it has inaccurate solid brass grip plates [which are very heavy]) the weight of the dagger can pull the belt down as you put it on, leading to an unintentionally loose fit. If this is the case, try removing the dagger sheath from the belt before putting it on and then re-attaching the sheath and dagger once the belt is securely on.

I hope this helps a bit.

Crispvs

[richsc]

Some time back there actually were some S hooks found, that were originally thought to be attached just under the arm pit..which is ludicrous and painful . I made up the word 'suspendarii' and believe they were later thought to be just that: S shaped belt hooks. I think Mike Bishop may recall more about those.

[Flavius Licinus]

Thanks for the quick replies!

I'll have to try the larger tunic idea. I'm also wondering if I'm not wearing the lorica a bit too high. I'm 6'4" (just a wee bit bigger than your average legionary, I think ), and I wonder if that might have something to do with it.

[Magnus]

If you plan on doing anything more than standing around in your armour, I would secure the belt a bit better than relying on friction alone. No disrespect intended Paul, I've just seen guys who have done this, only to have their belt slide down and trip them up. As funny as it is watching someone fall...

If you don't want to use S hooks, use some simple leather thongs. Tie them through the girdle plates...front, back at least. Sides will keep it even more secure as well.

[jkaler48]

Leather thongs = Roman Army "100 mile an Hour tape" aka Duct tape

Any more recent Army vet will tell you that off the parade field a lot of tape gets used to make sure equipment stays where it should in the field. Leather thongs are the most important item of kit I take with me to reenactments.

[mcbishop]

is it the right size? When done up it should be tight around the bottom girdle plate. It should be tight enough that you cannot easily push anything (such as a knife blade) between it and the armour. It should act to pull the armour in tightly around the hips.

This is an important point. The placing of the tie loops on actual examples of Corbridge types confirms that they overlapped at either end to form a solid oval: this was imitated on the later Newstead type by actually making the tie loops poke through the mating plate. It was Robinson's conclusion that the lower plates of segmentata had no tie loops precisely because they were held together by the belt(s).

Mike Bishop

[Marcus Mummius]

If you plan on doing anything more than standing around in your armour, I would secure the belt a bit better than relying on friction alone.

I have to add my experience to Paul's.

Several of my group have accurate reconstructions of Corbridge A segs (made by ourselves) and have no problems with the belts sliding down.

Not only have we succesfully stood around in our armour, we have also fought in it and done several marches (2 days in the field) with full pack in difficult terrain and with naughty donkeys.

I must say that in 2008 I once had some problems with my belt sliding down from my seg. This happened during a wedge charge at Marle 2008. At that time I had had just recovered from an exploding appendix and I had lost 15kg of weight.
I was wearing the same tunic (a baggy sleeveles one) and subarmalis as I wore before the weight loss. Thus my armour was somewhat less padded and caused the belt to slide down.

Just to say that a properly constructed seg, coupled to a good belt and adequate padding will stay up.

Valete,
Falco

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

I always secured my belt by resting it on the lower bronze loops on the second plate from the bottom up. So the first plate from the bottom which has the loops.

It always provided a snug fit and did not fall off at all. The lower plates might have been used for the balteus, but I am not sure of that at all. I think the reason for the lower plates not having loops is that they allow a little more movement of the hips without constraining too much blood vessels. That is why they are flexible and not tied to one another like the upper plates.

M.VIB.M.

[Magnus]

Well Jef, you and Paul are the only two people that I know of that haven't needed something else to hold their belts up.

I made my own segmentata, as per the directions on the Legio XX site. Are you however, implying that this is incorrect? If so, please share with us so we can all see what a properly constructed segmentata is supposed to resemble.

I may also say that my belt is more than good, and the subarmalis padding more than sufficient.

Or perhaps my midrift isn't fat enough, causing the belt to slip. I suppose there is a compliment for myself there somewhere.

I'm with you for the positioning Henk...my lower two plates are past my hips and need the flexibility. I would hate having my belt around it.

[Magnus]

I couldn't find any close up pics of seggies with belts on your site Jef. Do you have any you could post? The only difference I could see from the one picture, is that one of your guy's seggie flares out at the bottom. For some reason, mine don't. If that is the case then yes, I can see why the belts don't slip...

[Gaius Colletti]

Putting your balteus on over your baldric should help secure your balteus somewhat. I added another belt hole into mine so I could get a better fit. Both these help reasonably well to hold up my balteus

[Crispvs]

"Putting your balteus on over your baldric should help secure your balteus somewhat."

Maybe so, but it would also run counter to the evidence, such as it is.
http://www.romanarmy.net/artweapons.htm

"I added another belt hole into mine so I could get a better fit."

That seems like a good idea. I think many people (including some of my own acquaintance) could benefit from that simple piece of advice. :wink:

Crispvs

[Magnus]

What about the rear part of the baldric Paul? Any evidence to say if that part was under the belt or not? I generally don't put the front of mine under, but I sometimes will put either both or one of the back straps under it.