Ancient army numbers

[Sean Manning]

I will have to find this. And add it to my list of 'to reads'.

I still believe we can not totally discount the massive size of the invasion force.
What would be stopping the supply lines being cut, if there was not a garrison of the areas the forces moved through?

First off, I don't know of any evidence that there were land supply lines (in the sense of a continuous flow of supplies overland from Persian Thrace). Ancient armies didn't use huge detachments to hold conquered territory; Alexander and the Romans used a few thousand second-rate troops scattered widely, and messengers with small bodyguards.

Edit: Xerxes and Alexander also used hostages (you don't think that all those troops Alexander brought along from Thrace and Greece but hardly used were there for their fighting value do you? If anyone in Thrace had rebelled, Alexander had a lot of influential men he could kill in various interesting ways)

[Darth_Roach]

I will have to find this. And add it to my list of 'to reads'.

I still believe we can not totally discount the massive size of the invasion force.
What would be stopping the supply lines being cut, if there was not a garrison of the areas the forces moved through?

First off, I don't know of any evidence that there were land supply lines (in the sense of a continuous flow of supplies overland from Persian Thrace). Ancient armies didn't use huge detachments to hold conquered territory; Alexander and the Romans used a few thousand second-rate troops scattered widely, and messengers with small bodyguards.

I think they might have kept some troops on the Hellespont though.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

WTF did you get 4 million men from???? hock:

I don't recall that figure ever being mentioned in any sources?

[Darth_Roach]

Herodotus. Five million, in fact.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Exactly. You can't move 4 million men through the hot gates in three days. See Delbruck's paragraphs on the lengths of marching columns.

Where is this figure mentioned anywhere? You have totally lost me there.
And while it has bee na long time since I read up on this, I seem to recal lthere being mention of the entire progress, which included the need to hold the route back, open.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Herodotus. Five million, in fact.

hock: hock: :lol:

You sure it wasn't 10 million? I can't recall exactly what my translation of herdotus said, but 5 million??? I couldn't buy that figure either. :lol:

[Darth_Roach]

Herodotus. Five million, in fact.

hock: hock: :lol:

You sure it wasn't 10 million? I can't recall exactly what my translation of herdotus said, but 5 million??? I couldn't buy that figure either. :lol:

10 million? Whatever floats your boat. :mrgreen:

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

No, not at all Peter. 8-)

However, as I said, while I figure the figures quoted, whatever they really are, are inflated, I
still think the army and logistics train involved may well have numbered close to a million men.
It would be a feasable figure, and one easily latched onto and used to, as has been said, exaggerate the opposing combat forces. The Empire was a fair bit larger than Greece, after all.

I seem to vaugely recall a figure of either 400,000 or 140,000 being mentioned as the force
Xerxes left behind with , was it Marodonius?, after he was defeated at Salamis?
Still a huge figure.

[Robert Vermaat]

Alexander the Great and the Logistic of the Macedonian Army is the best analysis on ancient logistics and the limitations it puts on the army size. Cured me totally from inflated numbers so popular in 'my empire is bigger than yours' online debates.

Ah, thanks for that. Despite all arguments here, I still fail to see how a kingdom like Xerxes' Persia could field an army of millions, or even as many as 500.000 (AND feed them) where the Romans had a maximum force (NOT in an expeditionary army) of 600.000+ and Napoleon (whose early modern industrial society is incomparable to the 5th c. BC tribal kingdoms) fielded an army of similar size, but failed miserably, losing 90% :!: of them in one campaign.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Perhaps the good fortune of holding the multiple bread baskets of the ancient world at the very center of their empire for a lot longer than the Campaign of Alexander lasted??
Or the Romans?

[Darth_Roach]

No, not at all Peter. 8-)

However, as I said, while I figure the figures quoted, whatever they really are, are inflated, I
still think the army and logistics train involved may well have numbered close to a million men.
It would be a feasable figure, and one easily latched onto and used to, as has been said, exaggerate the opposing combat forces. The Empire was a fair bit larger than Greece, after all.

I seem to vaugely recall a figure of either 400,000 or 140,000 being mentioned as the force
Xerxes left behind with , was it Marodonius?, after he was defeated at Salamis?
Still a huge figure.

A million men?
Let's see. 3 million liters of water per day, ~5 thousand tonnes of food per day not counting the pack animals. Yeah, sure. :mrgreen:

Remember, the whole army was previously assembled before Sardis. Which means it both had to fit in the plain, and it had to be sustained in a single quite remote province.

[Darth_Roach]

Let's be honest here - is there any other ancient army you'd attribute a million men to?

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

So you don't think there was any logisitcs suppost streching back to the empire at all,
just all went with the Army? Ok whatever floats your boat.

[Darth_Roach]

What kind of logistics support was possible in your version? There were no railroads. Armies generally lived off the land or their immediate provinces. It was impossible to move such amounts of food and water over large distances, mainly because of the slow communications and the fact that the supply train needs supplies as well.

The fleet couldn't have been a worthwhile lifeline either, because fleets were already inefficient with food and water resources, having to land almost every day and consuming large amounts of supplies.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Well Peter, in your version we have no recourse to the sources at all, no logistics, no supply by sea, or land, and some one has already discounted the living off the land, garrisoning the hostile lands, and the road(s) in Anatolia no longer exists, and while they spent three years gathering the army, they did not need to supply it from anywhere except where they were ?? Right-i-oh! :-)